Travis John (00:01.638)
Welcome back to another episode of the Real World Assets Show. Today we have special guests from Stobox. We have the Co -Founder and CEO, Gene Deyev. Welcome sir. And Ross Shemeliak, the COO and Co -Founder. I've had really interesting conversations with Ross over the past month and we've been having conversations about really going live with what's going on with Stobox and introducing Stobox to my users at RWA Builders and some of the things we're doing on this side of the pond.

Gene Deyev (00:12.738)
Thank you.

Travis John (00:31.574)
So, welcome to both of you.

Gene Deyev (00:35.212)
Thank you very much Travis. Thank you for having us. Thank you for the invitation. It's great to be here. Of course, we'd be happy to the insights and our progress with respect to Stobox as well as, I this is a marvelous industry and the great momentum. So there's definitely a lot to chat about. Yeah, I know we're both on the forefront trying to get looking for real options.

Travis John (00:53.584)
Yeah, I know we're both on the forefront trying to get looking for real world adoption.

Gene Deyev (01:03.486)
Sorry for the connection anyway. Yeah, it was.

Ross Shemeliak (01:03.586)
Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Thank you for inviting us. It is a pleasure to be here and looking forward for insightful conversation between Stobox and RWA builders. I think that we have a lot to share and a lot to digest.

Travis John (01:04.837)
Yeah. Yeah.

Travis John (01:21.836)
Yeah, 100%. I know you have some big news we'll get into with Stobox 4 and just different developments of your platform, but I guess let's start from the beginning.

Stobox, a really great name and You guys are the the OGs in the security token offering market. You've been doing this for five years and You know, there's only a few that have been here have stuck around and have real thriving businesses right now and and Stobox is one of them for sure and I know you have a really strong client list and we'll talk about some of that as well But really like to just talk about how this all started, know just in a short format

how Gene and Ross connected and how Stobox was formed.

Gene Deyev (02:09.802)
Ross, would you like to start?

Ross Shemeliak (02:12.644)
Thank you. Thank you, Travis. Thank you, Gene. Yes, let me start and we'll be very happy for any comments and insights from Gene because like we're building the same company for the last five years, but each of us have a different angles, how we see the full industry and our current operations and activities. So look, we started this business more than five years ago, as you mentioned, with the idea to merge the traditional markets.

with the blockchain because Gene and I, have more traditional backgrounds. And for the last five years, we built their full Stobox ecosystem that includes different arms and different parts of our business. One of them, is their consultancy where we help clients to indicate what tokenization is and diving into the business model to understand how tokenization can be feasible.

And for the last five years, we conducted more than 100 ,000 hours of research to understand all of the cases, pitfalls, regulations. And also we act in case a global general manager for the client to assist him during their STO path. And we focus on each stage of the STO and it is our unique selling point that will manage all of the process. It is one arm of our business. The second arm, is their

technical ecosystem because Stobox is a tech company and so far we built three blockchain based products for the primary issues for security tokens in form of SaaS software as a service and to launch this product more than four years ago and it was one of the first STO platforms in the world. The second platform that we have, the second product, it is the secondary market for security tokens. This product we released more than three years ago and it was one of the first DEXs

Decentralized exchanges optimized for trading, especially of security tokens and tokenized assets. And we conducted the first case of secondary market of security tokens with our clients Landshare using Binance Smart Chain. And the third product that we already built and released more than two years ago, it is Soulbound ID. This verification layer where you one time pass KYC and then can access all of our ecosystem because it's fully web -free, self -custody through the smart contracts.

Ross Shemeliak (04:34.786)
It's like login with Google, you register one time with Google and then can login in different services. The same we did in Web3. So it is the second arm of our business. And the third arm, it is our educational activities. And I really appreciate their contribution of their area builders, of their popularization of the organization of real world assets. And I think it is great strategy. And I know that it is long journey. It is hard journey, but

the right way how to contribute. That's why we also sharing our expertise through our YouTube channel, through the RWA Media that we built through the Stobox Academy that we recently launched. And I'm sure and I know that there are different possibilities how we can collaborate. And because there are tokenization industry, it's extremely huge niche. I'm sure

And I believe that it is not about the competition, it is about the collaboration. And it is great to see the different providers talking, Securitize RWA Builders, Stobox, Brickken, all of them contributing and bridged through their one idea to bring tokenization on the streets and popularize the real world assets. Thank you. And Gene, do you have any comments, especially of what we are building now?

Gene Deyev (06:01.216)
Yeah, I will tell you more about building. But it's actually it's great that we started back then because back then there was already kind of knowledge within the air that the blockchain would be a supreme technology for any type of transactions. But when we talk about the assets, usually finance is the first kind of industry to adopt that new technology.

It just appeared that finance and the blockchain, they collect, and this is how cryptocurrencies emerged. At that point, it was back in 2018, 19, when was in Asia back then, and nobody knew how to evolve, but everybody kind of felt that huge potential within the air, like something's gonna happen. And we thought of, what is the main problem? How can blockchain actually create the value?

And we come up with this with idea. Okay. I think the main would be to transfer something which is very liquid onto the chain to make it liquid. So I guess that would be the first biggest. boom within the market because the liquid and what I liquid assets. So this is now you tackle. Okay. This is the key. So you're going to tokenize something and liquid and value it and put it on the, on, on, on some DLT framework.

that actually will distribute this asset without the, of course, with respect to certain compliance rules and securities laws. But nevertheless, the technology of DLT would actually bring this up. And we thought, yeah, definitely that's the spot to be, but what is next? And it was like no one, you're very right, Travis, there's a couple of companies like that, like Securitize and Tokeny and a couple of other guys.

And everybody was looking at the industry from the different perspective. Now we're talking the acronyms, the RWA. There was no RWA back then. Everybody was doing a security token offering, tokenization and all these unique cases. But now it's great that actually we see, know, patronization and kind of, you know, standardization within the industry, within the token standards, within the certain approaches, regulatory stuff.

Gene Deyev (08:26.442)
you know, how clients see the keyization because back then it was just absolutely, you know, something untouchable for them. Now they more or less understand what would be the scope. So the industry is being formed that is actually great to be one of the dinosaurs within that first DNA evolution. But the most and the most interesting part obviously is the head of the curve. I think what is everything is doing and being done now.

I think it's just to have an advantage in the start of the industry. Of course, if you look at the BlackRock with Ethereum fund, which is the first fund of that size of the public on the public blockchains. But again, I don't think it has started yet. will definitely, tokenization is something that will.

start very, very soon and then we all gonna explode. I mean, that's how I feel about

Travis John (09:29.261)
I 100 % agree and I'll make some comments on that. think, well, two things. I mean, you guys make it sound really easy. Like Ross, you're explaining the four pillars of your business and we all know that you've spent a lot of time and energy and resources and pivots to work through regulatory compliance, work through legal, have the right partners in place, have the right tech stack in place, and obviously follow all this over time. So I mean, I know that goes without saying, but I think it's important

know that obviously this has not been a linear path for five years. It's been a very jagged path of getting to where you are now, which as you mentioned, Gene, I think we're gonna see this explode. think as just being an entrepreneur, I see a lot of this quite often. Most of the time we're early, we're too early. Right now, like as you mentioned, Gene, like right now is the right time. Like somebody getting into the industry right now,

Gene Deyev (10:21.035)
Thank

Travis John (10:27.142)
is actually coming in at the right time. We were just a little bit too early.

at that point, but you still have a head start because you've learned and you've put all these things in place. So you have a SaaS platform and I do believe that's the future of tokenization. And the education platform is not to be diminished because onboarding people and educating people is going to be the most important part really and having those easy SaaS platforms where people can, that bridge is very easy for them to take the next step. Like you mentioned Ross, just like signing into Google.

no different. That's the goal of blockchain. We need to make it completely invisible so that people are able to obtain value but without having to have all the technical complexities.

Ross Shemeliak (11:13.854)
Yes, exactly. And by saying that there are different parts and it could be sometimes too early, it means that, to be honest, in Stobox we spent since 2018, two years, zero revenue, zero clients, because it was very difficult to educate businessmen what tokenization is and why they need so, because it was too early.

Travis John (11:43.948)
Yeah, you have, you know, your current portfolio is about 55 % real estate tokenization, which makes sense. I know your portfolio is probably going to change dramatically, but we know that real estate is the biggest asset class. It is one of the most illiquid, arguably, just because of all the bureaucracy, all the paperwork, all the legal structure. So it makes sense why that's one of the first things and why that's your largest portfolio base currently, just

Ross Shemeliak (12:03.364)
Mm -hmm.

Ross Shemeliak (12:12.378)
Okay.

Travis John (12:13.994)
Because companies like Landshare, getting real estate on chain is a significant overhaul to be able to do that.

Gene Deyev (12:24.31)
Yeah, moreover, it's a very capital heavy market, right? So we're talking about a substantial amount of money, which is more or less valuated. So you can justify the figures behind the brick and mortar. Unlike if you're raising for startups, for example, or you took something which is more of a revenue share, you know, financial instruments. So here you have a brick and mortar, which exactly as I mentioned before, was in liquid.

And even if it may be more or less liquid, definitely it will be within the certain borders of the country. If we talk about the US real estate, most probably there is a number of constraints to purchase for investors outside of US. If we're talking about the real estate itself. But once we tokenize it and it becomes global. that's the exit to DeFi.

And of course, real estate would be, I think, is the most capital in the markets. it's one of the most, I mean, on the balance sheet, it's a liquid, right? So that's it. You can put it on the, from the liquid balance sheet part to the liquid balance sheet part, that how it works. And just by that, by this, just even though at this point, there's maybe limited liquidity, you know, even though it's getting better and better, but...

know, evolution takes time. So there will be liquidity solutions, but the way how the market now looks at the tokenization, is exactly, you know, corresponds to our vision, which we were forming a couple of years ago, it this way, but we see how he's getting a momentum as well.

Ross Shemeliak (14:02.01)
And I will comment that the real estate, why real estate is the biggest implication of the real world assets when we talk about the private capital. Because it's also very clear and very understandable for the investors, because everyone around the world know

how to invest in real estate and why invest to real estate. And tokenization, it is just the tool, how it simplify the process, bring liquidity, one window, one platform through which you can invest. And that's why it is easily to explain for investors why they need to buy this type of the assets. And it is also very important because you can have hundreds of the offerings, but zero investors.

But with real estate, it is beneficial for both of the parties, for their companies or for the developers, because real estate, is a very old industry that needs modernization in the processes of investments and for investors, because to buy a house in New York, need to have two millions of dollars, and it is very high entry threshold and barrier for your investments.

Travis John (15:29.534)
Yeah, I completely agree. think to your point, think everybody understands shelter, whether you can afford to buy a home right now anyway. Everybody understands the value of shelter. So that's why real estate's going to resonate. The only issue, as you guys know, as Gene noted, I mean, the adoption curve is still not there yet fully. The people that are investing in tokenized real estate are the same people that...

typically own regular real estate right now. Maybe they have rental properties and they want an easier way, a less friction way to own real estate because they know how hard it is. I I've owned more than a dozen properties at one point and as a landlord, I know how difficult it is. I've managed over a hundred properties through portfolio. So I'm quite aware of all the friction points of that, how tokenization for the individual investor changes the game dramatically.

Part of that is the education, as you guys know, is a big part of it because people that aren't able to invest in real estate right now are still not fully aware of tokenization for the most part. So that's where your academy and your resources come in, where our resources come in, and just this collective voice of distributing the good word about tokenization.

Gene Deyev (16:49.174)
I would also try to comment on the following that we are, when, technicalization is different to technicalization. There's a different ways how it can be done. And even on a technological level, there are a number of differences. And every company has their own vision, but we've adopted the vision where, you know, kind of not your keys, not your money. Even though we dealt with the securities.

we purely believe on the compliance on air and programmability within the smart contracts instead of having a centralized venues. So whatever we do in Stobox is auditable and put on chain as is for the logic purposes. So anybody can look at the how contracts are created and what are the rules of the automatic execution. So having that said,

we understand that there's a lot of things to build, right? So it's not kind of web two system, but it's rather web three systems. So we are working on this, but at the same time, I will give you an example. If you look at the like Facebook version three years ago, you will look at this and say, wow, did I use that product, right? They're like, was it me to tap on the Windows 98? I mean, there's always, the evolution goes,

in general, we can't just be the first one in adopting crypto. It's the whole market is paying up. So in the beginning, when we saw just the appearance of Metamask and it's a very kind of awkward ways how people manage their private keys, share their public keys. Now it's getting more and more adopted. So I'm sure, and again, we're working on this on the technological level, on the product level, UX level.

And we see how the adoption curve, you know, meets a regular user, you know, capabilities of managing the things. because web three is difficult, right? For the average user, need to have a lot of knowledge. So what we see is like now kind of products, for example, like OpenSea, right? Even Uniswap, they're making their UX and making products much more, you know,

Gene Deyev (19:13.772)
people are reentered, people are getting aware of this. So when we talk about the adoption of the immunization, even though we built our Stobox four kind of to the top level of today's new access and crypto adoption, there is still curve to be, know, to be watered, the talk have to be walked, right? So what I wanna say is that we just, you can't get an adoption

at momentum. It's a growth steady adoption of how people managing the wallets. And now what we have around 200 million wallets overall, BBM compatible, around 60 million on earth would be what is called an active wallet with their transactions with one transaction at least every month. There are 60 millions of that wallet only. It's less than 1%.

And it's a huge industry now. So when we, you know, when the regulations product UX and adoption will meet at some point in the future, when we start, start talking about like 20 % of the global GP will be tokenized. Then done with that. I mean, we're all heading towards that future and building, not just having it's very important. Everybody builds whatever we know all the companies around.

sharing and building this path to the bigger picture.

Ross Shemeliak (20:47.706)
Yes, exactly. And also one of the challenges that I see currently because tokenization goes mainstream. anyway, we see more and more tokenization providers, cases, new players, and it means different technologies, different stacks, different smart contract standards. So the current challenge that we're also trying to solve, is interoperability, where you have a different

smart contract standards. And if you will look around the world what happened in RWA, you will see many cases. But currently, like call listings and corporations in the smart contract level, it is impossible because each provider has each standard, small cases around the world, will find thousands of them. But in reality, right, when we talk about secondary market and next movements once primary is done.

It is very challenging to breach because it is different technology stack. That's why in Stobox for we're trying and will support the main, not only ours proprietary smart contract standard STB2 that we developed more than two years ago, but also the smart contract of Tokeny and then many others of providers to provide the like one venue where the call listing will be possible. And it is also very challenging now and it is the next level of the adoption.

But the cases like Jean mentioned of BlackRock, I think it's like the benchmark of the industry. And it shows that any financial instrument in the world one time will be tokenized. And real world assets, let's start from the definitions, right? It is a different niches that I included. For example, the private capital, where we see the real businesses.

like real estate that we already discussed. have commodities that could be also determined as RWA. We have T -bills, it is tokenized treasuries of the governments and public companies. We have the tokenization of collectibles of items like Rolex watches or cars. We have the stable coins and I think it is the biggest case of RWA in the world.

Ross Shemeliak (23:13.528)
Because if you will think about of their Circle Tether, so it means USDT, USDC, it is the biggest case of area in the world because what they did, they have the fiat currencies that are in papers or in digital form. It is real world assets and they put it in form of tokens and tokenize it. So it's the biggest case in the world. And it is also one of the parts of their real world assets industry.

what we discussed with Jin before, what will be the next evolution in the upcoming 10 years of the RWA's. And it is very interesting topic because what we believe, we believe in community -driven businesses. That's why we think that the next evolution could be the tokenization of your private securities, of your private time where you can tokenize yourself. Because if you will think...

think as an investment fund, why would you invest in some company if you have the opportunity to invest in person who can create a different companies? Doesn't matter successful or unsuccessfully. And you have this opportunity to invest directly in person. And we have already several successful cases in Silicon Valley, in US, in paper based where their investment funds officially invest in person for the lifetime value

that person generates and I think it could be the next vehicle, the next future of real world assets because it's changed the life of the population from their unbanked from the poor countries and opens a lot of opportunities for people to fundraise for themselves.

Travis John (25:05.335)
No, I love this transition and there's great points by both Gene and Ross. mean, I think the transition of why Stobox is different, what you're doing differently, your thesis, and also, like, as you mentioned, Ross, there's so many different applications of RWAs. We're just scratching the surface and it's a long game. It's iterative, just like, even though you've put in all the hard work for five years, the hard work is just starting, as you guys know, it's gonna continue.

To your point about the US just stable coins, I think we talk about, you hear the thing of the statement, the iPhone moment. For the iPhone moment, for people to come on chain, I think for that moment for RWAs

Stablecoins are a good use case for this, for example, because we know all around the world, the US, even one of the most modernized countries, our inflation, debatably the US dollar might be worth about 92 cents right now. So if we get regular Americans, other citizens around the world and many countries that are even significantly more affected by inflation, they're learning about stablecoins and they're starting to settle on stablecoins. So I think the bigger

is not necessarily Bitcoin being the overarching currency. That's just a hot take, but I think it's really about stablecoins. I me personally, when I'm working with companies and I go to market and things, I I prefer payments in stablecoins because fiat is, I'm already taking a 10 % haircut most likely. So I think that's really an unlock moment because once people are on chain with stables, then it becomes very easy to see, okay, how am going to invest

Ross Shemeliak (26:27.72)
Mm -hmm.

Travis John (26:52.83)
Yes, there's going to be some yield. There are yield bearing stable coins now that's starting to become a thing But then it's how do I get better yield more predictable yield? Okay real estate over here Maybe I have an interest in certain collectibles like you mentioned Ross like maybe I'm you know a big fan of this person That's creating these companies with value. I'm gonna invest in their You know lifetime value of that person's you productivity, so yeah, I mean the sky's endless I've heard you guys talk about this on your podcast

Ross Shemeliak (27:10.17)
you

Travis John (27:22.492)
recently just about all these amazing applications and you know some more more up the risk curve and some more you know kind of like the t -bills or you know kind of base layer so to speak stable coins are base layer but as we start moving up the risk curve there's so many opportunities as well

Gene Deyev (27:39.232)
No, thank you, Travis. I agree. would, again, this is the main point of turning people onto DeFi. And this is, think, regardless of the substance, whether it's a cryptocurrency, it's RWAs or they can be different reasons why they're, even MAM coins, right? We don't care. We just need people more on the DeFi side.

because having said that everything will be tokenized, now you have your wallet and you have your kind of vision of rendering your financial thoughts, right? You're the king, right? You analyze information, you have access to whatever DeFi products, it's all borderless, okay, with respect to compliance, and we know there's a lot of regulations now being enforced, but...

That's your access to the independence on the DeFi. And on the CEFI, you always be dependent. You depend on your broker, you depend on your bank, you depend on a lot of things, on a social credit. There's also a new dependence in our world. So with the DeFi, think that's the main point of inflection where people turn.

Ross Shemeliak (28:38.682)
It.

Gene Deyev (29:01.674)
And again, I would agree that stable coins would be an easy conversion point. So before they go into kind of more diversified RWA perpetuals, they would rather move their payments, right, to stables and the standard is faster, better. Of course, you don't have a bank to call, but you know, these days not many people have the bank to call, right? So anyway, they're stuck with the, with the ordinary banking machine and which

Ross Shemeliak (29:18.33)
Okay.

Gene Deyev (29:31.234)
which is quite heavy and slow. On the other way, you have these DeFi payments on ERC 20 within a second. So that's the adoption. And then of course, on top we'll have the RWAs, the memes, the times and name

Ross Shemeliak (29:41.818)
I have comments, Gene. Yes, you're completely right that the main agenda is to move people from their CEFI to DEFI in general. And then from DEFI, they will start using RWAs. Because as Travis mentioned, as you mentioned, when you have already your stable coins in your account, you will think about...

what you can do with these currencies, where to invest. And there are some events that motivate people around the world to forget about CeFi and start researching DeFi. And it is the cases like Mt. Gox, like FTX, where they're losing the money in centralized venues in crypto. these events motivate them, motivate general public just to research how to store

money with your keys in DeFi. Okay, you need to install Metamask. Okay, you need to understand how to buy gas. But in this case, you will be responsible for your funds. And of course, around the world, we still will have millions of people for whom currently more convenient will be to use DeFi. But with this evolution from the technology wise, from the adoption wise that Travis and Gene already mentioned, I think we will see

this reaction of movement, those people to their decentralized solutions and start utilizing their simplified version of MetaMask or any other providers that will help them to onboard to the products. The same that we have in Stobox 4, because in Stobox 4 it's like their, I call it web 2 .5, because from one standpoint,

you have simplified process of onboarding, you need to have the email and password. But then you will be attached by MPC non -custodial wallet, where the half of the private key will remain to the provider, for example, Fireblocks, and the half of the private key will remain by user. In this case, you still have the opportunity to backup and to reverse if you will lose your half of the private keys.

Ross Shemeliak (32:04.046)
that you don't know how to store. But it still simplify the process and make it more secure because anytime you can withdraw all of your assets into Web3 completely, into your white listed wallets if you do not believe or trust for in CEFI, right, in centralized venues, and it is completely okay. But you have this layer of protection. So it's like non -custodial, but half of the private key remains by the user and the half of the profile blocks.

And I think that with evolution, with such a solution, it will additionally help everyone to onboard people around the world for different products, including real -world ads.

Travis John (32:47.392)
Yeah, and including... Yeah, go ahead, Gene.

Gene Deyev (32:47.871)
Also.

Yeah, sorry, I just want to add we always miss the guys who are about 2 .5 billion people and this is people who aren't back. And we talk about the switch from Ce -Fi to DeFi, which is perfectly fine. But what about people who have never been to Ce -Fi before? We're talking about two and a half guys, billion people.

that most probably within the next decade will have an access through whatever phone, it's an Android, iPhone, I don't care, but it will be a wallet there, it will be any sort of identity attached, and there will be some sort of tokens, most probably stable coins, and there'll be plus 2 .5 billion people into the game. So that's, that's a lot.

Travis John (33:38.443)
That's massive, yeah. And to your point, two and a half billion people

many of them, as you know, are connected with a smartphone already, which is the irony. Like they have a smartphone, not all of them may be fully compatible or, you know, there's certain other regional issues potentially, but from the sense of technology, that technology is much closer to this adoption curve of bringing those people directly into DeFi versus Ce -Fi. And many of the reasons they aren't in Ce -Fi is not because, you know, sometimes it's trust, sometimes it's the government, as you know, sometimes it's just a

The Ce -Fi institutions don't want someone that doesn't have a certain net worth. It's unfortunate, but that's just way it is. I think that was a perfect transition too, Ross, just talking about I think the future is this non -custodian, your keys, your wallet, but then having the fireblocks type solution where you have an MPC, excuse me, you have a little bit of peace of mind.

you know, from having that wall extraction. And I think that is really the future, again, of just another thing as we've been talking the motto here of just how do you get the adoption?

Ross Shemeliak (34:44.256)
Exactly.

Travis John (34:54.4)
A lot of it is education, but then also it's the concern of risk. It's like, if I go to my bank in the US, you have a $250 ,000 insurance policy with FDIC. So you don't worry even as bad as the press might get. Legally, you're able to get your insurance if some reason that bank goes out of business or something. So I think that is definitely a, it's not a sexy part of DeFi and what we're doing, but it's a very important part of people feeling comfortable

putting a lot of times their net worth or their hard earned investments into something that they feel like, what happens if I lose my key? What happens if something happens?

Gene Deyev (35:34.06)
But you know, very right. But when you look at the CEFI, it's always local. CEFI is always local. It's always regulated. You take US, you take Europe, even though there's global companies and there's post -partization processes, right, and certain harmonization of. Nevertheless, if you are having an account with the Chase in Brooklyn, right, that would be a different story of you having, I don't know, at Wells Fargo in some way.

So this is a different SIFI infrastructure, whereas on the DeFi, it's all harmonized, and it's all global. you don't have, DeFi is the access to the global markets.

like pure access, pure on chain, you have enough, if you have enough, there is enough information for you to go through and understand what is the contract, right? What does it do? How is it being built? So you're on a awareness side of finance, and now it's global because of the DeFi protocols. They don't have to chat.

on a different standards. Nobody knows what they're chatting about. And then they end up with being named with barely stones with a 20 % more equity on the public. And it's a public company, right? And everybody says, okay, how come they have more 20 % of assets than they have on the balance sheet? Traderable on New York Stock Exchange. Like we have a clutch, we have a clutch, come on. Bear Stearns, the biggest company. that, so that, that things would be just impossible on DeFi.

Right? It's transparent. Somebody will click. I'm not saying so. No more scams that way.

Travis John (37:26.123)
That's why I think, you know, I know we agree that public blockchains are, I think, a big part of this and BlackRock proved that with using Ethereum for their first fund. know, so they could have obviously focused more on

permissioned chain and they chose to keep it transparent. think that's quite important that we see that evolvement. I believe in that thesis as well. And I think from, I guess, as we're building up to this transition too, like Ross, you touched on this a little bit, but maybe walk us through, I know you've given me an excellent explanation of like, Stobox 4 and even just starting from kind of like the user experience of onboarding, what this looks like. You talked a little bit about the simple

2 .5 type of onboarding and having a Fireblocks.

wallet, where that makes it a lot easier and more comfortable for people on board. let's talk a little bit more about your Stobox 4 and just all the things that you're doing differently. Because we touched on this different times in this conversation, but I think it's important as we're getting toward the latter half here is just really digging in of how people can get involved, what's different, and why this is such a simple process. And then we can talk a little bit about your ecosystem token as well and how that kind of fuels incentives and Web 3 ethos, which I think is

important for community.

Ross Shemeliak (38:49.226)
Yeah, thank you a lot.

Gene Deyev (38:50.292)
I will steal that answer from you if you don't I will steal the product product part. Look, we we we deploy dashboards as the platforms for our clients. It's a manual process. And because we're talking about the securities legislation, most of the cases, there are certain processes that you can't you can't just mainstream. So it's not a crowdfunding.

Ross Shemeliak (38:53.336)
Yeah, please start.

Gene Deyev (39:19.948)
company, it's not a crowdfunding platform. So we have to deploy software for all of the clients. And even though we optimize this process, every client meets certain challenges because there's a corporate side of management where you manage your securities, there's an investor side. So given the fact that it's all Web3, you will have your own investors

the company would have their own investors and we will have the same problems for same benefits as they. So we kind of create similar infrastructures for all of the clients. But then we realized at some point that look, in order to enforce new regulations, we need to be wallet issuers, but we need to make sure that the wallets are non -custodial at the same time.

there could be a compliance logic put on it because most of the clients, they're not sophisticated. They don't know how to manage the securities legislation, which basically would just put them into potential fraud scenarios. So we need to take care of this. So we need to create a programmable logic for the securities to behave with respect to the issuers desires or issuers compliance.

And to bridge everything together, would be one of the, I'm sure that's the best way how it should be done, is by creating a bigger platform. This is basically a Stobox form that you would create the wallet and we'll be aware of the wallet issuaries. We're using the Fireblocks technology, but nevertheless, the wallets are attached to identity.

So every transaction within Stobox for is the compliant transaction. So that's a must, right? Because again, we dealt with the RWIs and with securities and compliance something we have to focus on. Again, if people are happy with memcoins outside, that's perfect. But our territory is all the transactions have to be attached to the KYC data on chain.

Gene Deyev (41:37.022)
So that's the first engine. The second engine, we understand that there's different types of securities and there's a different type of businesses that can be aborted. And the first customers will be not people who like to tokenize, but as you're very right, the people who would like just to use stable coins or any digital assets, but in a compliant way.

So by bridging KYB data, KYC, UBO and bridging the compliance with the wallet infrastructure, we were able to pull the Pure Web 3 compliant payments. That actually you can export data from blockchain via API and show it to your tax attorney. You can prove it, it's yours and you can build...

you know, a payment within the company, your own company for all of the people outside, you know, working off of different jurisdictions. So you can use this as a payment tool. And the next would be, of course, you as a business, you always have your assets, what you can do with them. that's the next step. After the payments are being done in a compliant way, you think, okay.

And what is my security token? It can be a revenue share in your podcast. It can be a profit share in your personal interest from whatever. So what we'll be facing, it's much more sophisticated assets that can be, that can be tokenized. So it's not just the corporate, but the kind of derivatives of personal and corporate. can play around. You can buy an attention.

do a lot of things and we need that playground to play, right? You need to, because we never know. Time is one type of asset, know, two bills. So we need two things. need an infrastructure to list others, right? So we speak the same language and people get access to something which

Gene Deyev (43:51.052)
perfectly fine as on though, for example, or left or they get access to some staking in a compliant way. At the same time, they should be able to create something new and tokenize that new, make sure they frame it correctly, legally and token wise. And the last, but that definitely is not the least is that what we face is the problem of trust.

Because okay, BlackRock issues a fund. No way, no questions. But if either of us would issue a fund, like unless we know each other personally or we have a huge heritage and legacy behind our names, everyone would question what it is, what it is like. Why would I buy your fund? So what we're doing is that we are creating a, I don't wanna say it's a marketplace, but basically within the flow of token issuance.

We have providers that actually can do audit and verify you and your contract. imagine you tokenizing something with two legal providers, KPMG in Geneva and Ernst & Young in New York by blockchain approving this offering. So would that that would be that different to your potential investor? How they treat your token? Of course it would. So we kind of bridging

the adoption compliance and a bit UX with the ability to create this asset, not just purely on the blockchain, but attached to validation, to legal facts. So you will able to see like, know, NFT being traded. You can see how the security being born, who originated, who created,

accepted this, who value it. So it should be getting ready to a bigger industry. So you look at the, as a potential investor, you build trust. So Stobox builds that trust. And again, we've seen so, so a lot with the last five years, we have that vision how we can put it now and definitely make a next step in adoption of the things.

Ross Shemeliak (45:53.731)
Exactly.

Ross Shemeliak (46:17.248)
Exactly. I may say that we are the innovative block socket for other sockets because through the Stobox for our main agenda, it is to have one venue, not the marketplace, but the venue where we can create their functionality where the user once he's on boarded through the email password, then the user will be attached.

by the MPC non -custodial wallet where, as I mentioned, the half of the private key remains by the user, the half of the private will be remained by the fireblocks. And then the user, because it's non -custodial wallet, self -custodian, need to have deposited the gas. But it will be connected through their exchange where he will be able to deposit through their credit cards. So simplify the process.

Then it will be the functionality for store crypto, compliant store crypto in this wallet. Then it will be the functionality of tokenizing the assets. What assets? We will breach T -bills from Ondo, from Maple, from other providers. We will breach their private capital tokenization through our understanding, utilizing different service provider standards, as I mentioned, by Stobox, by Tokeny and by any others.

We will create the functionality of tokenizing real estate or any collectibles like Rolex, like real estate, like cars through their NFTs. And we will, have this block socket. And when I'm saying so, I mean that it is perfectly fits with integration with different providers. For example, we utilizing the expertise of the teams like chain analysis, like Arbitrium.

Like EUROS, Stasis is the biggest EUROS stable coin. Like IDOS that will do the verification. Like FractalID. So all of these guys will be in one click integrated with our solution. And it means that through the Stobox4 you will have one window through which you can store crypto, tokenize your assets, buy the gas for your transactions, then stake your currencies.

Ross Shemeliak (48:34.162)
And in this case, you will remain the user of Stobox and be in one platform to use and utilize all of the digital assets. And it is the main idea. And you, Travis, touched very important point about the risks, right? And it is extremely crucial for our listeners, because if our listeners will open their X platform, Twitter,

and will navigate through the hashtag RWA or STO, they will find zones of the companies, a lot of projects that having their utility tokens with zero traction, but under their abbreviation and agenda of RWA, but they have nothing with real world assets and the users and their listeners, they need double check and do their own research, what company does.

What they tokenizing, where, how, under what processes through KYC and KYB or without, because it's extremely important because the common user, common investor that have no idea what tokenization is, utilizing and using Twitter, YouTube or other channels and we'll see a lot of projects that do marketing because tokenization now is a trend as you Travis mentioned, we just started. And it is extremely important to do the proper research.

about each project, each token or each offering.

Travis John (50:07.319)
Yeah, you guys really brought this.

brought this together so nicely, hearing the bigger picture, how Gene, you described that and how Ross, how you kind of associated that with the socket and the window into Web 3. think that this, you've been on the front lines for five years, so you see this evolution where a lot of the projects, as you mentioned, Ross, they're in the phase right now where they're literally manually tokenizing things one -to -one. You've already been there, done that, and you're still doing that. You've already proven that. You already have clients in that area.

evolving the Stobox 4 into the window at Web 3 that has all this built -in compliance, has the comfort level and trust there. so I commend you both for this consistent vision of evolving. And as you mentioned at beginning, you still got to walk the dog. You still got to do this work because it's going to be constantly evolving. And you want to look back a year from now, two years, three years from now, and be embarrassed of what the

technology is going to advance so much, you want to keep going with it. And I love seeing that. And I do think that that is really the future is you have a window into Web3, you're able to make your payments. And I will touch on one thing I think is super important. What you mentioned, Gene, about

derivatives. mean, I've been, not enough people are interested in talking about this yet, you know, there's 700, debatably 700 trillion in assets, like traditional assets out there, like including real estate, etc. But that doesn't count any of the derivatives. You brought up excellent examples where in Stobox 4, in these, you know, new Web 3 applications where you can, to your point Ross, know, investing in a person, investing in all these things, the derivatives market is going to be 4, 5,

Travis John (51:58.651)
or more of what the existing market is. So the tokenization of all of this stuff as we know, I mean, it's early and it's going to take a long time, but it's exciting to talk about. But I mean, it's significantly bigger than the $700 trillion that traditional assets fit under. So I commend you guys for building this and I do think that derivatives is actually potentially a bigger storyline soon. It will be.

Gene Deyev (52:27.914)
Absolutely. I will just comment on the following. If you look at the, and it's very simple when you just look at this, right? You take time and this is a very, this is your asset that you can't mint more. That definitely within your life that the asset that increase the value and you definitely is looking after that asset, right? So.

By tokenizing a thousand hours, and I would just give you an average example. Like there's a lot of people are moving and it's not just economic movement, it's due to some sort of negative global effects. For example, they move countries. An average hour of an IT person, just give it 40 bucks. So $40 ,000.

just tokenizing a thousand hours, which is less than six months of a full -time job, would be a very good substitute to nothing because banks are going to support these people anyway. Friends and family, shrink and some not may not be, you know, a very healthy way of raising that aid. And this is a very economic, don't, you don't donate to a person, but you rather buy an asset out

if it's properly insured and put on the financial rails, we are paid, we pay developers, we pay marketing fees in hours. Why don't we use that as the collateral in the first place? Because they already get paid, so these hours can be minted and redeemed. that person is, the value of the hours they increase with the education they put in their brains.

my value, my investment into people's time, they increase in the long run. mean, there's certain, of course, there's certain limitations that went away. We're finished, we're finished time. I mean, you're very right. So if you look at this concept and it's already, we don't just even think how it's closed, because we're already charging our based on time. We pay programmers, we pay a lot of things.

Gene Deyev (54:51.158)
lawyers based on time, why don't we tokenize time of a young bright kids and then make sure they are successful. yeah, derivatives and the new asset classes definitely will be a new paradigm of, again, once we're at some point we'll put the AI on the blockchain, humanity will put this, this will create a new economy of

blockchain avatars and you know, it's only in crypto that that robot can pay robot, right? So in order to get R2R transaction, they only can be done through smart contracts. No banks gonna handle this. So once your drone will be talking to my drone, the only way they can pay each other is through the crypto, right? So that's it. And we're just getting there.

Travis John (55:44.429)
Yeah, crypto is going to, a lot of people talk about how crypto is, you know, kind of on a walled garden apart from RWAs, but crypto is essentially the economic currency of RWAs. You know, it's going to, and just like Stobox has a utility token,

gas and for other incentives, these types of economies within the Stobox ecosystem and any other ecosystem that comes into Web 3 are the future of commerce and the future of economies, especially of scale. as you mentioned, having a platform like Stobox 4 and as you continue to evolve it, that also allows you to move in and out of traditional investments, whether that be like the Ondo type T -bill or something that's a

derivative and again this goes back to like a balanced portfolio. You might want to invest in this time of somebody that you are fond of that you think is going to be successful. That's obviously significantly higher on the risk curve and then you can be in the ondo you know

one of their funds or super states funds. And those are another ways to obviously have a predictable yield that you're gonna know you're gonna get. yeah, this has been a really amazing conversation. I always like to geek out on these things and just kind of talk through all the, where we are now, where we're going. And it's really nice to see Stobox is on the front lines of this and commend you both for doing that as I mentioned earlier. As we're wrapping up,

What last words do you guys have? And I'll certainly let people know to visit stobucks .io, S -T -O -B -O -X .io, and really get involved if you're not already, and projects specifically looking for tokenization and they're looking for a platform that has done this before and already has a significant number of vetable and successful clients should look into Stobox for sure.

Gene Deyev (57:46.284)
Thank you, Travis, for your kind words. Thank you very much. Now for the last words, would say, guys, it costs you nothing to get educated in this domain. You can always contact us, jump on our call with us, see how you can leverage tokenized assets in your business. It's even though it's very, every case is very unique and very open to, you know, we have clients through all five continents, within different industries.

So we have some experience in what we're talking about and we're building. So yeah, just give us a call and we'll definitely help you in understanding how things can be tokenized and what would be the benefits for your business.

Ross Shemeliak (58:34.867)
Exactly. So I might say that my advice will be the following that start researching about the tokenization. If you're the investor, if you're the corporate, if you're the company, because you still have the opportunity to be one of the first and get all of the benefits and gains of your activities. Because the fact is that all of the financial instruments will be tokenized. The question is when you will be onboarded to this industry.

And now you still have this opportunity to get all of the benefits because as we may know that the biggest gains are in the beginning where you are the first of the adopters and you can use some services, some technologies, some assets and get the benefit from the gains. So start researching about it. Please following their RWA Builders, the podcasts research about the industry.

visit Stobox Academy, RWA Media to be educated and we'll see you on boarded in RWA.

Travis John (59:42.396)
We will.

Gene Deyev (59:42.806)
Yeah, and being five years in the market, and once you love that thing, you no longer work a day.

love with RWAs and that's why it's going. That's why we're just having a chat rather than walking.

Travis John (59:58.535)
Well said, Gene. Well said, Ross. And I will end this web by saying that, as we know, these kind of conversations are important in moving the industry forward. And even though you've been doing this for five years and you've been very successful, you both are very reachable. You're both very much interested in having conversations with people, as you mentioned, Gene and Ross. You obviously could be harder to get to and be less interested in talking to people and getting the word out, but that's actually

the case at all and I love the transparency, I love that you're accessible and available and yeah it's been an amazing conversation. I look forward to having you guys back at some point soon to talk about the new developments and as we have more of Stobox 4 in the market we can talk more about how that's impacting RWAs and onboarding crypto users.

Gene Deyev (01:00:50.536)
Absolutely. We will be unwrapping Stobox altogether, so we'll

Ross Shemeliak (01:00:50.596)
Thank

Travis John (01:00:57.116)
beautiful. Talk soon. Alright, thank you. Same to you. Ciao.

Gene Deyev (01:00:59.35)
Thank you very much. Thank you very much Travis. All the best.

Ross Shemeliak (01:00:59.866)
Thank you a