Travis John (00:03.204)
Welcome again to another episode of the Real World Assets Show. Today we have a special guest. We have Thor Abbasi from Zivoe. And Zivoe is a, simply put, a RWA credit protocol focused on disrupting high interest consumer lending. And they're aiming to power a financially inclusive world. So we'll get more into it, but that's a lot to even unpack already. So welcome Thor. How are you doing today?

Thor Abbasi (00:27.838)
Doing great, thank you so much for having me on, Travis.

Travis John (00:31.14)
Same here. So Thor, I know you're a co -founder. You've been at this for a couple of years. You're also head operations. I got to meet John Quarnstrom, your CTO and co -founder as well at Consensus just recently in Austin. So that was exciting. And I know we chatted about getting this set up. So excited to have you on. Just wanted to chat more. I guess, first off, just tell us a little bit about how you got this started and what was that origin story of Zivoe and...

what was the precipice of getting this started.

Thor Abbasi (01:04.446)
Yeah, for sure. So just to kind of re -recap it, as you mentioned, Zivoe is a real world asset credit protocol and we're focused on disrupting high interest consumer lending. And the way we do that is by actually connecting on -chain liquidity with real world borrowers. You know, as we were kind of talking a little bit about before the show, Zivoe actually started as an idea a little over two years ago. I was actually talking with my father of all people who had left...

the previous business he was at and, you know, had exposure to the consumer lending market and had noticed a problem in this industry. And we kind of got talking about how we could address this particular market, in a way actually leveraging blockchain technology. So that is where Zivoe was actually born. And then from there, we actually brought on two additional co -founders, one of them being Kristal Gruevski, who is our general counsel.

as well as one of our other co -founders and her background is as a consumer regulatory compliance attorney in FinTech, which has come in super, super handy, just given all of the changing regulatory winds in crypto. You'd also mentioned John Quarnstrom, who is our CTO and one of our other co -founders. I had met him, actually at a local blockchain meetup in Arizona where we'd both been living and John was fresh off.

actually some time at Maple Finance, which for those of you who don't know, is kind of one of the original private credit protocols in the space. And I think they've done, two or $3 billion in loan originations now. So they've, they've been, you know, really successful and John, was responsible for architecting and helping lead the build out of their V1 one. So that is really how our core team, came together. And since then we've really just been, iterating on the project spent, you know,

a little over probably about a year and a half actually doing the tech development, including audits, and we're getting ready to launch coming up towards the end of the summer here. So it's an exciting time for us.

Travis John (03:12.612)
Yeah, that's exciting. I know I want to get into your partners, which, you know, definitely some who's who of partnerships there and audits you've already had, where you're at with fundraising and kind of your MVP. As you mentioned, I mean, having the right team is important. And as you mentioned, the Maple Finance is obviously one of the pinnacle.

lending platforms out there. So clearly having a team that has that background is huge with John coming on board too. But as you noted, and it's not always as sexy of a topic, but anybody that's in the business as a builder appreciates having also a co -founder or a very, I found it to be very coincidental that co -founders.

are also in that compliance legal space. Instead of having even outside counsel, I'm seeing more and more blockchain projects because as you mentioned, there's just so much regulatory murkiness out there. So having that is quite important, particularly when you're working very closely with finance, particularly in your case consumer lending. So yeah, it's exciting to hear. I think that's always a big plus in my book, for sure.

Thor Abbasi (04:23.166)
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that is really kind of unique about what we're doing is just the team we bring together. I think we have a really good background on our team between TradFi and DeFi and just have a wealth of experience in the time of the team internally, not only on the tech side and the consumer regulatory compliance side, but also just in actually underwriting. And we can kind of get into why that's so important a little bit later, but I think it's something that.

bring to the table that is super valuable and that between a couple of people on our team is we probably have 40 plus years of experience in actually managing consumer loan portfolios and managing credit risk. And so that is a really, really important part, I think, that we can dive into a little bit further on.

Travis John (05:10.021)
Yeah, I think that's a perfect transition. So let's talk a little bit about just this sector in general, like, you know, just why consumer lending. I mean, I think most people get this on the surface, but, you know, I know that predatory lending personally, you know, just something I'm quite aware that is a problem, but just maybe paint a bigger, like a more specific picture and we can talk about like the industry as a whole and what can be addressed here, particularly from Zivoe's perspective.

Thor Abbasi (05:38.142)
Yeah, for sure. So I think when we talk about this, I think people are always a little bit mind blown because the thing that people don't realize is that in the U .S. there is a quarter trillion dollars of unsecured consumer loans. And of that quarter trillion dollars, approximately 20 to 30 billion dollars of that are loans that actually have triple digit APRs. And so what this actually looks like in reality. Exactly. It's insane.

is people who are borrowing like $2,000 to $10 ,000 at let's say a 200 % or even higher APR. So you can go Google, like high interest lending horror stories. And there's even a really good Bloomberg article called Lending at like, I think it's 576 % during the pandemic is literally the name of the article. And it goes into a couple of different kinds of stories. One of them being a woman named Kimberly Richardson. And she borrowed,

$2 ,500 at a 276 % APR. And she paid back over $7 ,000 in interest and fees over two years. And that doesn't include principal payments. And she ended up eventually defaulting on that loan. And so we as a kind of a protocol exists to help people like Kimberly. Our focus is on individuals who fall into this sector that

you know, are being mispriced more or less. So someone like Kimberly, you know, we have, you know, we would view her as someone as a prime candidate for, you know, working with our lending partner because she has made, you know, so many payments and she's paid back so much as, you know, there's a realization there that, Hey, this person is trying to do the right thing and pay off her loan. So without going into the secret sauce of kind of how our underwriting works,

we're really focused on helping people like her in this industry.

Travis John (07:37.988)
Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, I know that you have a proprietary setup, but with regard to, like maybe walk me through as if I was Kimberly, you know, what it looks like, how you're identifying people, like, you know, because obviously I always like to visualize it on ramp and I think our listeners and viewers like to understand like how do people come into your world? What does that kind of front and funnel look like? And obviously also like,

That's important because if you're going to make an investment, you're going to get into your token and the economy that you've created and also the yield, which is all really exciting. But I think obviously everyone's going to look at that risk curve and say, would I want to get involved in Zivoe based on your underwriting process? Why would I want to make this investment? So I think that's always an important start.

Thor Abbasi (08:28.35)
Yeah, for sure. And totally get that. I think one of the things to touch on before jumping into just kind of an overall explanation of the funnel, one of the things that we've really taken into account when building this out or going through this process is the user experience. Because at the end of the day, something we really believe as a team is consumers don't necessarily care that they are interacting with a blockchain based app. What they care about is that the thing that they're using works and is more effective than the income.

And so to that end, in order to be able to effectuate change in this particular market is we are actually working with a lending partner to begin with. And we actually started out as one company with them and split into two to be regulatory compliant. So Zivoe is the Crypt of Native Credit Protocol. And then there is a separate company called Zinclusive.

that has some shared management team members that is actually the traditional fintech responsible for originating loans to consumers. And what this allows us to do is inclusive can offer consumers an experience like they would get it any other lender. So, you know, like going back to your example, let's say you're Kimberly, right? And let's say, you know, you hear about us either through an advertisement on, let's say Google or Facebook or a different kind of online channel, or even actually through

direct mail because a huge part of it in this industry, still is actually sending people like flyers in the mail. So you kind of come in through one of these lead channels, you go to is inclusive and you apply to actually have your loan refinanced. And so is inclusive will then actually underwrite you and go, Hey, you know, you are approved or not approved. And what is actually happening on the.

back end of this is Zivoe is providing the capital to actually fund these consumer loans that are being originated. So capital from Zivoe is coming off chain, is actually funding these consumer loans that are being originated. And those loans are then being placed into an SPV or special purpose vehicle that the protocol actually has rights to to protect it.

Thor Abbasi (10:46.238)
And so that is just the super high level user flow. And then there's a whole bunch of different probably areas from here. We could jump in and talk about a little bit more.

Travis John (10:55.172)
Yeah, no, that's exciting. And I mean, as you know, being compliant here in the US is very important and also requires extra steps. And I mean, all of the big players are doing the same thing. And I know obviously one of your partners is Securitize, which we could talk about, but...

Clearly, they're doing something very similar with BlackRock, which not too many conversations come up here without talking about just some of the tailwinds that come from BlackRock and what's happened. But yeah, it's completely natural to have a Web2 business and you're saying all the right things. Ultimately, the blockchain should be invisible. Any of the backend crypto -native stuff or blockchain -native things, generally speaking, are...

unnecessary and just confuse the process. So that's great that you have a very web -two traditional way to help people because they don't care. They want to obviously find better terms and be able to move forward with their life and move forward without having that over their head. And high interest rate, of course, is still a loan, but something that's more manageable and not predatory.

Thor Abbasi (12:02.494)
Yeah, for sure. You know, I think being able to even step people down from something, you know, like 276 % to even something like 60%, which is still high, is huge because that's the difference between, you know, maybe you're making a monthly payment that's in just rough numbers, but, you know, something maybe like a $400 a month payment down to something like a $100 a month payment. And that extra $300 is huge. And so that is...

you know, really what we're trying to do to actually drive change in this industry. And it really does have real world impacts. And one of the things, you know, as you mentioned, is that the kind of back end for consumers in a way should be obviated out from a blockchain perspective. But what we're really looking to do in the long run too, is actually look at, you know, how do we...

onboard these individuals into a Web3 world as some of the technology continues to get better and you have things like account abstraction become more and more common and more and more integrated into let's say traditional user facing applications.

Travis John (13:13.796)
Yeah, totally agree. I mean, it's an education process and yeah, ignoring the future being on blockchain, of course, is not the path either. But it's, you know, obviously we all hear about the association between the internet. Like most people don't talk about, you know, going on the internet. They just talk about going to a site, you know, like, or getting on an app. They don't say, I'm going to get on iOS or I'm going to get on, you know, they don't talk about the platform that's supporting it necessarily. They just talk about where they're going.

So, but again, as you mentioned, building that bridge, making it natural, because people will obviously be doing quite a bit on the blockchain in the future. And, you know, having that education process naturally fits in your ethos, it sounds like, because you're very much educating people and you're providing a, you know, essentially a life raft to people that need it most. You know, so they really appreciate and probably are one of the most open -minded to hearing,

after you've helped them ways to kind of move through that, like you said, whether it's some account abstraction, some way to make Web3 pretty smooth for them.

Thor Abbasi (14:23.966)
For sure.

Travis John (14:25.06)
Yeah. So I think, I mean, you can help me transition if you want as well, but I think maybe we talked a little bit about, we talked a little bit about kind of that onboarding process. Actually, it has a lot of real world impacts and really a, you know, it's a for good type of, public good type of service that you're obviously doing. I mean, clearly there are different, you know, kind of the buy side, sell side and...

the customer side, which there's an entire economy that you're creating. So from the blockchain side and the Web3 side, what I really appreciated is obviously the yield. I'm a big fan when it makes sense of having a tokenized ecosystem. And I know you have a token and you have really a well thought out process from the research I've done, but I'd love to talk more about just kind of how that other side of the coin works from the Web3 side.

What this looks like for a lot of listeners that listen to this show, of course, what does this look like from an investment standpoint? How are you structuring this? And it sounds like you've done a lot of your homework on the front end, bringing people in, which is really important because you need customers and you need to solve a problem. And you guys have found a real serious problem. You've identified ways to solve it. Now, how do you get that investor side that's going to support this through the token, through getting yield, et cetera?

Thor Abbasi (15:50.398)
Yeah, for sure. Clearly, you have to have capital to lend, and so that is definitely an important part of our model. So from a on -chain user's perspective, or let's say you are a DeFi user in search of yield and you want exposure to real world assets, you can come into the Zivoe application and you can actually deposit stablecoins into one of two tranches.

So we have a fairly traditional structure for people that maybe have a little bit of a finance background. We have a senior tranche and we have a junior tranche. The junior tranche acts as first loss capital. If the off chain collateral held in the SPV is not enough to cover any losses, then that is actually taken out of the junior tranche. For that, they are compensated with a higher target yield, which we can kind of get into.

here in a second as well. the senior tranche has a lower target return, but it is protected by the junior tranche, which acts as that first loss capital. So once this capital actually comes into the protocol for every stable coin, a depositor receives a tranche token. Those tranche tokens can then be staked in our seeking contract to actually claim the yield coming back on chain.

from this off -chain lending activity. And what we're looking at to begin with as a target is a base target return of 10 % to the senior tranche and 22 % to the junior tranche yield paid out in stable coins. And on top of the base yield, people who are actually providing liquidity will also receive some ZVE, which is our native governance and utility token.

So this token is used for participating in protocol governance. And then it also has a utility in that it actually is receiving 10 % of all yield that is being generated by the protocol. And so that is something that a liquidity provider on top of earning those base returns from staking their tranche tokens will also be receiving.

Travis John (18:12.74)
Nice. Yeah, those are healthy proposed returns for junior and senior tranche. And I do like the way you said it, like you said, very TradFi focused and lets people kind of pick their risk tolerance and where they want to be there. And...

From a utility perspective, the ZVE token, other than the governance, what are the utilities do you suspect? What are the kind of like demand generation? Do you feel like that token's gonna have in the sense of a utility perspective?

Thor Abbasi (18:49.086)
Yeah, for sure. So to dive a little bit more into the tokenomics of ZVE, first and foremost, that token is going to have a fixed supply or a cap supply of 25 million. So we're going to cap the supply there and then there's, we'll kind of just maybe go through to begin with the scenarios in which ZVE is actually released or invaded. So clearly, you know, as the team, we will have ZVE that is vested to us as well as

Some of the people who backed the project early will also receive ZVE that will be vested out to them. To briefly touch on that, that's going to look like a four -year vesting schedule. So that'll be a one -year cliff followed by three years of vesting. Now, as I mentioned, I do have an attorney as a co -founder. So the one thing I'll caveat, especially as we're talking about yield and investing schedules and stuff is everything is subject to change up until...

point of the protocol launching. But what I will say is, you know, when we go into that launch, we will be sure to have our docs updated with everything with all accurate information. So just be sure to refer back to the docs when we go into our launch for anything that may have changed. So that'll look like a four year vesting schedule for those individuals. Now the first opportunity for

you know, DeFi users more generally to receive ZVE is going to be through our ITO or initial tranche offering. And this is a period of time in which people who provide liquidity will actually qualify for a ZVE airdrop. So we're going to airdrop 5 % of the supply to people who participate in this initial tranche offering. Going back to the legal side more time is that'll just be restricted to people who are either US accredited investors or non -US persons.

on an ongoing basis, we'll also have the ability to continue to incentivize liquidity deposits with ZVE emissions in terms of usages for the actual ZVE token. So one first and foremost is the governance aspect of this. So the way our protocol actually works is all of the capital that is coming into the protocol is actually aggregated or essentially escrowed and a central,

Thor Abbasi (21:13.566)
DAO contract. You can almost think of this as like the central treasury. and that is like our Zivoe, DAO dot sol contract from this central contract. What's actually happening is governance has the ability to allocate capital to different lockers. And at the locker level is where we are actually originating loans and that the governance token has the ability to.

vote on which lockers to allocate capital to and can actually withdraw capital from these lockers. And then at the locker level, we would have different multi -sigs that are actually responsible for, underwriting or originating loans to our lending partner. So that is kind of the high level of what the actual governance token does. And then.

finally in order to actually claim that 10 % yield that's flowing to the token, it will also need to be staked as well in order to claim that.

Travis John (22:17.412)
Right, okay. So you stake the ZVE to earn a share of the protocol revenue and that's in the form of USDC, correct? Is that? Okay. All right, cool. Yeah, I mean that's...

Thor Abbasi (22:25.054)
 protocol revenue will get paid out in USDC to begin.

Travis John (22:35.396)
I mean USDC is on, I don't know, 17 blockchain. It's everywhere right now. So probably the most universal of all tokens currently from a stablecoin perspective. So, makes sense. And yeah, and I'll just point out, obviously, you have a lot of these graphs on your site, which I'll share, and your explainer video, quite a few things that are...

I don't even see very often with RWA projects with very, you know, Web2 explainer videos and things like that that really kind of explain how the protocol works. I think that... I love how you guys did that. It's a cool setup.

Thor Abbasi (23:15.678)
Yeah, we're very focused on transparency because I think, you know, one of the things that we really believe is that blockchains are a better way to aggregate capital and are more capital efficient for some of these activities, especially when you're talking about things like tokenization and providing tokenized exposure. One of the tricky parts clearly about RWAs being such a new space, I think, is that sometimes...

You have to layer things or structure things in a way that, you know, maybe if you don't have a background in that particular industry, it can be a little confusing to understand what's going on on the back end and how things are actually working, which, you know, we feel if you're making a decision on whether or not you want to provide liquidity or be involved in any way, you know, you should have a full understanding of what's actually occurring on the back end with capital that's going into the...

protocol. And so we really want to be as transparent as possible about, you know, what are the actions that are actually occurring with that capital.

Travis John (24:23.3)
Yeah, totally agree. And you hit the nail on the head. I mean, obviously, from an investor standpoint or capital positioning standpoint, they really would not understand. I mean, obviously, clearly, there's a need there. It's a public good, which just makes an extra bonus. But understanding who that customer is, what the need is, and realizing then what the risk tolerance might be is a lot easier for someone to make a decision. So I think that's exciting. And...

I know from a timing standpoint, you've been building a lot of things behind the scenes and dealing with a lot of the regulation and a lot of the Web2 business as well, I'm sure. But from a protocol standpoint, I know that you had a private fundraise and you've had some audits done, moving into some additional things, I think, with Mainnet and...

airdrops and things like that. So maybe we can talk a little bit about kind of like the roadmap of what you have planned here in the next, you know, what maybe just wrapped up as well as maybe what you have planned here through the next couple quarters.

Thor Abbasi (25:29.95)
Yeah, for sure. Always happy to touch on that. And for us, as I mentioned earlier, it's a really exciting time. We are getting ready to launch here this summer with a target launch date right now of July 31st is when we're actually planning on launching and holding the ITO or initial tranche offering. It's definitely been a long road getting to this point, but you know, I'm happy to say that we've finished our build out, our tech build out is completely done.

that's finalized and we've undergone two audits. So we underwent an audit one with Runtime Verification, hard to believe it, but that was back in 2023 now. And we just actually completed an audit with Sherlock, the auditing competition platform. So have undergone both of those audits. Those weren't really, really well for us. You know, they...

with any audit, you know, it was always going to be stuff found. There wasn't anything that was, you know, crazy, crazy major. And we've addressed kind of, all the issues that were noted. So we have kind of taken care of all that and are going to be going into our launch end of July. So definitely stay tuned, for that. So just maybe give an understanding of like, okay, what's happening after this protocol actually launches. So.

We're gonna have this ITO period and this is likely going to run for 14 days. So that'll last until approximately August 14th. From the completion of the ITO, once governance votes to actually allocate capital to a lending locker, we would originate our initial loan to as inclusive our lending partner who then actually take that capital off chain.

And what we are looking to do once Zinclusive has proven its underwriting models is very quickly begin to scale and grow our loan book past $25 million and actually prove just the concept out. Because I think what we are doing in a way is very much traditional, but also at the same time is really novel. And so one of the things we want to do before we continue to scale,

Thor Abbasi (27:50.654)
is just prove the concept and show everything working. And I think that's going to be super, super important.

Travis John (27:59.492)
I totally agree. Yeah, I mean, setting a benchmark of improving the concept of having that MVP and then having a dollar amount like the 25 million of saying, hey, this is where we feel is a good indicator of proving this out and also gauging demand and gauging, I guess, kind of both sides of the funnel, supply demand. So yeah, I love to hear that. And timing is...

is exceptional and I think also looking at people in the market from the capital perspective, that's going to be a big factor too. Like what's the appetite for this from an investor standpoint? I mean, I think from a, as you mentioned, from a accredited investor standpoint, I would imagine this is probably somewhat attractive and again, it's new. So there's always that little bit of education process of...

This is the same, but it's a little different. I'm sure you know, I'm simplifying that statement, of course, but I'm sure you can appreciate that. But it's, it's always, there's always a little bit of that extra conversation. And the reason I said is because I also see that from accredited investors that when you say the word tokenization, you know, as much as I love the word tokenization, you probably love it. It's,

They're really just looking at like black and white. Like, okay, what's the returns? What is it like? What's the risk profile? Like, you know, how long do I have? Am I locked up this long, et cetera? You know, there is looking at very simple metrics that they've probably looked at for 20 or 30 years. And they're, you know, they're making those decisions on that. Like the tokenization side or the DeFi side, it's not that they're not interested, but it's like the icing on top of the cake, so to speak. So I think...

That's changing as we know, like people are, their appetites and people's interest in this sector is becoming slowly happening. And then, you know, like, as they say, like slowly than all at once type of thing. I mean, we may, we may experience that we're experiencing some of that momentum now, but clearly there is a, a graduation process. So I like how you're kind of throttling that aspect of doing that and seeing where the demand is. And.

Travis John (30:01.732)
From there, obviously being able to move into a scaling position is exciting.

Thor Abbasi (30:09.054)
Yeah, for sure. I think the whole thing right now in terms of yield is, I think we are very competitive amongst RWA protocols with the yields we are going to be offering out of the gate. And I think the thing that we really believe too is in the long run, the yields as a protocol we are offering are going to be very attractive. I think we're in a position with the market right now, we're being at a table market.

and being kind of the stage of the market cycle we're at right now is, you know, you have a really good yield environment, which is great for all of us. As a person who, you know, as a DeFi user myself, I love times like this. It's fantastic. But we're really building as a long term protocol and, you know, are thinking about, you know, five years from now, what does this environment look like? And as you continue to have broader adoption and the space continues to mature.

you're going to see yield compression. And for us, it's, you know, we want to be competitive now, clearly with, you know, the yields we are offering, but also it's what does it look like, you know, a year or two years from now? And I think, you know, when people are thinking about, you know, protocols in the space too, that's something they should think about or consider, not just with, you know, our project, but just protocols more generally, you know, what is that?

you know, timeline actually look like and is this something that is sustainable or is this something that is going to be, you know, only here for the next two or three months? And, you know, neither of those necessarily are bad or good, but, you know, just understanding those things I think is really important.

Travis John (31:49.38)
Yeah, you make a great point. And like you said, the yield environment right now is quite attractive. And as the numbers that you suggested, again, I know that that's not financial advice or guarantee legal advice, as you mentioned, but realistically, it's great yield. And as you mentioned, there will be yield compression eventually. I mean, the market's always ebb and flow. And we are obviously in a very attractive yield environment currently.

And I think that's, that emphasizes where I like to, you know, close out a lot of this conversation is that yield is one of the biggest things with RWAs. And I'd say like that, I know I don't have to tell you that, but I think that's.

clearly why I think you're going to see continued demand from that aspect. And I have to ask, of course, I know that it's murky, but are you going to work on non -accredited investors being able, I know the answer is probably yes, but like, what are your thoughts about US non -accredited investors being able to participate in this at some point? Do you think that's realistic?

Thor Abbasi (32:49.822)
You know, at least for the foreseeable future, I think the answer is likely no, I am not an attorney and so I can't speak to it. You know, this is an area, as I mentioned before, is we do have an in -house general counsel and she's one of my other co -founders and Kristal's fantastic and would be the person to probably ask for an opinion on that. But all I'll say is, you know, we are really strong on regulatory compliance because, you know,

One of the things I think for us is that as you continue to see the merging of, you know, TradFi or DeFi, the lines between these two things become really, really blurry. The people who, in our opinion, are going to be successful in the long -term are those people who are going to be compliant. And so that's really what we're focused on doing is being compliant with all applicable laws and regulations because, you know, for our roadmap and where we want to go is we believe that's going to position us to be successful. So.

You know, one of the things we haven't really touched on a ton that I can maybe briefly talk on is, you know, for us initially, what we're doing is we are working with a lending partner to originate these loans. And we're doing that to be compliant and also because the technology is probably not quite where we'd want it to be in order to, let's say, actually originate loans directly to consumers. What we've always wanted to do is a protocol though, and where we are going to work to get over time though.

Travis John (34:00.836)
Mm -hmm.

Thor Abbasi (34:18.206)
is actually being able to originate loans directly to consumers from Zivoe and actually do it in a manner where we're bridging between DeFi and Tri -Fi because we believe that is going to allow us to have the most efficient model possible and benefit the consumer as much as possible. And so long -term, that's where we want to go. And clearly to do that, you've got to be compliant.

Travis John (34:43.204)
100%. Yeah, and you touched, I know you touched on that earlier, like using a third party lending partner is a great way to enter the space and, you know, again, learnings and being able to kind of have that MVP. And from there, of course, you can expand obviously between blockchain AI and so many other things. Now, I'm sure that Zivoe will be able to, like you said, kind of build your own lending protocol that...

maybe is Web3 native that may still have a Web2 front end, clearly, and onboards people in a smooth way, but it has a full blockchain backend, which is great. Yeah, it's exciting.

Thor Abbasi (35:19.87)
Yeah, and that's what we've had over time.

Travis John (35:22.916)
Nice. So anything else that you want to add? It's been a great conversation, Thor, for sure.

Thor Abbasi (35:29.118)
No, I think this has been a fantastic conversation. Travis, thank you so much for having us on and would highly recommend that anyone who hasn't definitely go check out the RWA Builders site. And I would just kind of leave it on this, you know, for those who may be joining late or only caught the back half of the podcast, you know, my name is Thor. I'm one of the co -founders of Zivoe and Real World Asset Credit Protocol focused on disrupting high interest consumer lending. So...

If you think this market shouldn't exist like we do, I invite you to join us and participate in our launch, which is going to be happening at the end of July. So Travis, thank you again for having me.

Travis John (36:09.796)
It's been a pleasure. We'll talk soon and look forward to following everything as we approach your launch date. Thanks, Thor. Cheers.

Thor Abbasi (36:15.87)
Much appreciated.

Cheers.