Travis John (00:01.038)
Hello again and welcome back to another episode of the Real World Assets Show. Today we have a special guest. We have Thomas Tallis from Tvvin. Welcome, sir.

Thomas Tallis (00:10.628)
Thank you so much, Travis. Great to be here.

Travis John (00:13.134)
Likewise, likewise. So I've been following your project, uh, started this early in 2023. So before people were using the RWA acronym, right? So I, I really was looking forward to this conversation and getting into what you guys are doing at Tvvin. The unique spelling of, of Tvvin, which is T V V I N, which I, you know, I, I know the background to that, but I want to talk through some of that, but, uh, why don't you give us a little background on, uh, yourself.

Thomas Tallis (00:34.852)
Right.

Travis John (00:42.318)
how this got going. I know you're not new to the blockchain world, but maybe give us a quick intro on Thomas and what you're doing. And as the co -founder, I know we don't have Lise and I've communicated with her, Lise Wessel, as your co -founder. Both of you have significant background in Web2 businesses as well as Web3. And this is a massive success so far, but you're just getting started at Tvvin. So I'll turn it over to you.

Thomas Tallis (00:42.852)
Sure.

Thomas Tallis (01:02.724)
Right.

Thomas Tallis (01:11.62)
That's great. Yeah, so prior to me coming into this space, which has been now several years or a few years. So I've co -founded, successfully built up and exited experiential marketing agencies throughout the Nordics. So that's what I commenced if we go back to the early nineties. And around 2016, I...

really understood that there's been something that's been with me for a long time, which is I'm passionate about creating novel tools, financial tools that can be accessible in a widespread way and actually offer better options or at least more options to what we have, to what has been consistent from the conventional side of financial services, really in my opinion, for too long.

So in 2016, beginning of 2017, I took an initial project to the FCA in London, which is the regulator in London. We were funded. And this was an alternative way for people to contribute to their pensions or to their latter day savings. And it was to give the project its credit. It was very successful. We got far. But in those sort of, call it those early days,

And probably even today the FCA would still, you know, to a certain extent have the same response. But certainly back then they didn't really have any inkling on a timeframe on when we would be able to be operational under license. So that obviously was, you know, how long was a piece of string and there was no answer. So that meant that the project...

Well, unfortunately had to be then put down, but the fortunate part was I learned so much and that I continued to with this red thread and this red thread is still existing today with Tvvin. My journey then through, through, through being in crypto and with this, um, uh, as I said, personal, personal passion to create, uh, what I see as much needed, uh, alternative investment tools.

Thomas Tallis (03:28.772)
has continued. So this is really the, when I look back, it's great to see that where I started when I sort of jumped into this space, that the same core ethos is still with me and certainly very much part of Tvvin.

Travis John (03:47.214)
Yes, that's been become apparent from me following the project and that's exciting. And as we know, the best learnings are always from the projects that don't necessarily work out, right? So.

Thomas Tallis (03:57.252)
There is yeah, it is you've got to take the rough with the smooth and and and and you will have to fall down many times before you understand how to stand up right and especially when it comes to to regulatory The regulatory side, you know, there is actually no better way than to have I've had experience from before so when you know now we're Tvvin we know You know we know

Certain certain points that you know, even if it takes longer even if it means that it is going to require more resource You're going to have to just do it So you know this is this is a that's invaluable and it's also now providing Tvvin with that much needed pretty sort of Prior experience for a for Tvvin to accelerate to the speed. It's going

Travis John (04:47.182)
Beautiful. I think just a quick aside, why don't we get a little bit of the background of, and this goes into, I can appreciate this. I spent a lot of time in marketing and sales and the unique spelling of Tvvin. I think T -V -V -I -N, I'd love to just share with the listeners a little bit about that backstory there.

Thomas Tallis (04:59.396)
Right.

Thomas Tallis (05:05.892)
Sure. So the purpose of the brand, the idea came because what are we doing? We are essentially taking a physical asset and we're beginning with gold and we are, if you like, sort of rolling out a digitalized Tvvin, something that is reflecting in terms of value, in terms of quality, exactly what the physical asset holds.

So the two V's, if you like, are the twins. If you had, you know, Travis, if you had a Tvvin brother or sister, you know, they are intrinsically connected with you. You can't separate you and your Tvvin. And so that is the two V's. One is the asset and one is the token. And you can't separate them because they are one -to -one locked together.

Travis John (05:55.086)
I love that. I love that. I think continuing on from this concept of how it's locked together and obviously this is the real world assets show. So most of our listeners are somewhat versed on definitions of blockchain and real world assets. So we don't need to get into simplicity there, but I think from the understanding of where the real world assets growth has kind of the trajectory that's happened and...

kind of the inflows that have happened, I'd say in 2024 specifically, obviously it's been building up, but I think I'd like to just kind of take a little bit of a step back just into the macro of where you are at Tvvin right now and how you see this fitting into the macro. And then we can talk a little bit about how those changes are affecting everybody.

Thomas Tallis (06:43.044)
I mean, on that point, I like to sort of draw people back a little bit further back to sort of around about the 2014 era where Tether first took its concept to the regulator in BVI. And successfully then, that was their point where they started to launch with what really I would say is one of the first examples of a real world asset.

It is and so that is really where it sort of it has it started. I mean, it's no it's no secret that institutions have been actually tokenizing or they would probably refer to at least back then as fractionalization certain real world assets, but it's always been done in closed circles for their for their key corporate clients. It's never only very recently.

have we then because the advancement of blockchain and what we can now see as excellent development tools, it's only now that we are moving very fast where the tokenization of certain assets are now able to be offered in a much, much wider audience. Certainly not in a closed room, but actually publicly where anyone who wants to can take advantage of the assets that are being presented.

Travis John (08:08.526)
Yeah, and that's a great point. Ultimately, stablecoins are the first OG of real world assets. Yeah. So there's no debating that. And still, ultimately, it's about 99 % of all real world assets. So we're in a very early stages of what this means right now. I mean, would you agree with that?

Thomas Tallis (08:15.78)
of the OG. Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Tallis (08:28.868)
Sure, and also what I find very encouraging for the whole topic of real world assets, look at the impact that Fiat backed stablecoins have had in crypto. I mean, the majority of trading is stablecoin. So that should just give everybody the confidence that once you start to then fill this space with more real world backed assets, real more other RWA backed assets, what we can expect to see because it's clear that the...

Travis John (08:39.598)
massive.

Travis John (08:43.374)
Right.

Thomas Tallis (08:57.828)
the dawn of of say Tether and other stable coins has had an enormous positive impact. I mean, we wouldn't be able to do what we are able to do without it. It's that simple. If you then start to bring in bring in other others like, you know, gold backed other ways, like with our VVG token, it starts to become clearer and clearer just how

just how much growth potential we have. We're still at a point where there is so much more to be enjoyed and gained. And certainly, real world asset tokens are going to have a ever increasing and important role within the macro trade on chain.

Travis John (09:47.214)
I definitely agree. I think the, and we've seen that with the Buidl Fund, obviously, you know, can't go through too many episodes without talking about BlackRock and their impact into this business so far. But even the recent announcement in March, and it's only been a little over a month, but ultimately, they were even just about 10 days ago, able to settle funds directly into stable, you know, stable coins. So that was really a...

milestone type event because ultimately everything was done on chain and you were able to then settle into a stable coin, you know, derivative, you know, which is, which is important.

Thomas Tallis (10:30.372)
Yeah, I mean, it just demonstrates just how right the temperature is. I mean, let's be honest, BlackRock doesn't do anything unless it understands that it's going to be in their favor. So the fact that they've taken such a sort of concrete and in terms of being bullish on real world asset and the whole business of tokenization, the fact that they're so bullish, you know, every time you...

sort of watch Larry Fink interview, you know, he is making it very clear that, you know, the sort of the ETF phase is really just the entree. You know, what's coming now is really the main course and the pudding and then some. So, you know, it's always very astute whether we personally like the big institutions or not.

That doesn't matter. It's very astute to watch what are they doing because that is telling, you know, very, you know, it's giving very clear signals. And like I said, they would not proceed by making such, you know, important and novel moves unless they understood that there was something worth having. So I'm very bullish when I see.

every time I see, and it's not just BlackRock, but every time I see, you know, that the CEOs of these institutions, you know, coming on and making such statements, it just reinforces that we're exactly in the right space and at the right time.

Travis John (12:08.334)
100%. And I think to your point, you love or hate specific institutions for whatever reason, that's not the part of this podcast, but ultimately it is important to follow what they're doing. And realistically, and this has been the biggest knock on crypto in general, which is, there's a very clear difference between real world asset tokenization and crypto. One is obviously tied to actual

Thomas Tallis (12:21.732)
Oh yes.

Thomas Tallis (12:34.404)
Hmm.

Travis John (12:37.838)
real asset valuation. The other can be very speculative in its own ecosystem. So I think it's important that we make a little bit of a designation with that too, because I think that's one of the things with new listeners to the channel are always curious of how this is different than crypto. Or most times they don't even have that question. Of course, it's just this is crypto. Crypto is a component, but it's not really the leading indicator here.

Thomas Tallis (13:07.108)
No, this is more to do with blockchain. You're so right. And we are now, our position is that really, if we were to choose, like I get asked this question now more and more, you know, are we from TradFi or are we sort of coming from the other side? And because of the assets that we're tokenizing, we are leaning much more toward the TradFi.

Because when I speak to my institutional contacts, they're really focused on what's behind our tokens. That's what matters to them. And, you know, the ones that I'm speaking to who are already now giving us advanced orders on our gold token, they per se don't actually or still haven't, you know, invested into, say, Bitcoin because, or maybe that's not the right example, but at least other cryptocurrencies, because they look at cryptocurrencies and they say, well, what's behind it?

often it's nothing more than a perception and a belief. And of course that does matter. But for a lot of these institutions, and of course don't forget these institutions are run where they have to comply with certain standards internally. There are boards that make decisions. It's never just one person that is making a decision. So it is the dawn.

of real world asset tokenization and especially when we are talking about assets that for them, they're very well versed in. You don't need to explain the value of gold or silver. This is something that they've been doing long before actually I came about. So it's a very...

I'm very comfortable with the fact that actually, you know, it is not just Tvvin, but in our space, we are we are helping to bring the TradFi and the decentralized side together, at least meeting at points that make sense for both sides.

Travis John (15:13.294)
I love that. And I think that that is a very key point because it's not one or the other. As you mentioned, a lot of where the opportunity lies currently, and this goes back to, again, just the macro of, you know, we see a lot of inflows into Bitcoin ETF, that that was a big windfall event of really bringing in new public investing, you know, from, and this is similar to what you're talking about.

Thomas Tallis (15:19.78)
Right.

Travis John (15:38.958)
but in a DeFi related mechanism where you're able to connect retail with TradFi. And that's really an exciting part of what blockchain brings to this and what Tvvin is bringing to this. And I think the other thing that we'll talk about in a minute is just the psychology of, and even the common ground that you provide a Tvvin with precious metals, specifically gold. And I think that's an important thing we'll talk about in a minute. But I think lastly, to your point about

how institutions think. I mean, one perfect example is we looked at MicroStrategy and how Michael Saylor would have Bitcoin on their books. And that was just like a horrendous thing. I mean, almost every other institution and other corporations were horrified by that. And to your point, like that's exactly how institutions operate. For them to say, hey, I have Ethereum on my books or even Cardano or whatever, that's just, even though...

Thomas Tallis (16:27.268)
Yeah.

Travis John (16:37.678)
Many of us who have been in this space are comfortable with those assets and see value and how they can be applied. It's not necessarily something that even remotely would be something that the risk tolerance is not there for institutions.

Thomas Tallis (16:52.772)
Yeah, totally concur. Absolutely. And again, this is all about adoption because, you know, Tvvin is here to facilitate mass adoption, whether that's institutional, but also crucially retail. So, you know, if we step back and think to ourselves what's going to actually help facilitate mass adoption, it is bringing in other assets, you know, where, as I said a few minutes ago, they have been around for, you know, since the start.

They they're understood. They've been traded and now through it, but through the advancement Of blockchain and the technology that we now have available to us that now suddenly they they're able to come on chain and it's it's really gonna It's really I'm really excited how it's going to change how people view outside of financial services because it's it's you know, they well for my for my for my chance, they're not ignoring it they want in and

And actually this has been what they've been waiting for. They've been waiting for the right moment for them to justify why they're coming in. And that's, yeah, this is gonna be, the next few years are gonna be so, so exciting.

Travis John (18:06.446)
Very, very. I think this is a perfect segue into like the adoption curve and this discussion kind of bringing a couple of the breadcrumbs we've already placed here in this conversation is stable coins. Everybody knows what a dollar is, whether it's a dollar in Norway, a dollar in the United States, et cetera, but the equivalent of the dollar in your jurisdiction. So stable coins are just a representation of that, similar to what Tvvin is.

providing the two V's with the twins of digital and physical assets. Stablecoins are an acceptable thing. It doesn't require any explanation. How you put it in your wallet and different things, of course, we won't get into those technicalities, but the sense of understanding what a dollar is and understand the value of a dollar, that's established. And I think the adoption curve next, and that's why I like where you've gone with Tvvin and the thesis, is gold.

could really is hard to argue to be the next thing that I think has a common ground among institutions and retail. And I think we're talking about both those prongs and marrying them together and providing that that TradFi DeFi opportunity. And I think gold is a perfect gateway.

Thomas Tallis (19:21.412)
Again, totally concur. You know, this is, there is, it's, you know, it's clear that there is unprecedented demand for gold. It's going up. And yeah, we, we, I actually can't really add anything more to what you just said, because everything you said is so right. So yeah, we have, it's again, just going back, it's, you know, maybe nine months or, you know, another bit before we would have been a little bit premature, but this is in terms of -

timing and how when we're now entering and bringing our products on chain, it's perfect. It's what is wanted. And it's almost like it's been written in destiny for Tvvin. It's meant to happen now and it certainly is.

Travis John (20:13.134)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think where I would like, maybe we could talk a little bit about the difference of, I know we're talking about how gold and Tvvin is tokenizing gold and how this is just, is this the first step for you? And also how does this compare to someone that wants to invest in gold separately? So someone says, okay, great. This sounds exciting, but I'm not a hundred percent convinced. Why can't I just purchase gold in general? I can do that already.

Thomas Tallis (20:25.572)
Hmm.

Thomas Tallis (20:29.54)
Right.

Travis John (20:42.766)
What's the difference? What are the benefits?

Thomas Tallis (20:45.444)
So we are very ambitious. We made it very clear in our communication that we are and we will embrace multiple different real world assets. But we are very, very fortunate to have a substantial and exclusive partnership where the quantity and the quality of the precious metals, because it's not just gold, but gold is where we're starting as our MVP, is tremendous.

So if you're lucky enough, Travis, to own a gold bar, that's great. And if the gold market is going up, and we are going to be following the LBMA market, which is a specific market to gold that is LBMA certified, and we can go into what that actually means in a minute. But if the market is going up, then of course your gold is increasing in price.

And of course, if the market then takes a slight dip, then you have to ride down with the market. But your asset is static. In one year's time, if we were to speak, you would still have the same kilo of gold. What we are now able to provide under licensing, and this is why it's so important that we've been doing all of the pre -work and the prep work with regulatory authorities and understanding the landscape there.

But under licensing, we will be able to then invite you to put your gold token, which is equivalent to one kilo, keep the same ratio. Put your gold token into what we call our digital vaults. Now we've already got heads of terms with a significant offshore merchant bank. They have given us a LTV, which is loan to ratio of 85 / 15 .15.

So let's say that your one kilo gold is worth, this is not what it's worth, but let's use it's 100 $100,000 just to keep the figure simple. What it means is that with your permission of course, because you've gone into the vault, the out digital vault, and you've decided how long you want to stay locked up in that vault. We then take the gold, the underlying asset,

Thomas Tallis (23:06.564)
And we put that down as collateral using the partnership with the bank. We are then able to take a loan from that gold. And if it was, you know, $100 ,000, we would be then able to borrow $85 ,000, for example, in loan. What is also very, I'm sure your listeners will find very interesting is that the percent to borrow,

is minimal. It's only one to one and a half percent. Why is the bank able to offer such a low rate of interest? It's because gold right now is probably in the way that the bank sees the most valuable, the most important asset. And therefore, by putting that down as collateral, you're getting the very best terms. So with that loan that we then take through the gold that sits as collateral, we're then able to work.

in the in the US T-Bills builds for example where we where we could then buy rolling bonds That you know with if we look at say a three month maturity They're paying out roughly five and a half or six percent. So it's not the world's biggest return Nevertheless, it's a solid return and one could say that it's probably at the safer end of the spectrum because the the probability that

that the interest will be paid out is high. So with that mechanism that I've just described, the platform then retains some of the upside, some of the APY, but crucially, you as the token holder that put your gold token into our digital vault also gets an upside. So thereby your gold, which in because you still own gold, you just own it through our token.

Your goal is actually earning passive income. That's the key difference. So when we then talk in a year's time, your kilo is no longer a kilo, it's more. Because of the ability for you to have placed it down, we then work it for you in the conventional side of the market. And we are able to then earn an APY, which is then shared. And of course, I've talked about T -bills, but depending on the risk appetite that's

Travis John (25:03.438)
Yep.

Thomas Tallis (25:28.932)
that our users have, we can then obviously look to other verticals, where the risk reward, of course, is different. So it's a higher risk, but potentially a higher reward. But it may be that you play it very conservative at the start. You go with what we consider to be at the safer end of the spectrum. But then the APY that you earn on that, that's actually something you wouldn't have had.

if you were holding physical. So maybe then you could take that, which we would just call the cherry on the cake. And then you put that cherry in the cake into more risk of us, or more riskier channels because really your principle is not being affected. So this is really now where we are then leaning into the DeFi side because this is taking what is a traditionally is a valuable asset, gold.

Travis John (25:57.966)
All right.

Thomas Tallis (26:27.3)
but we're now allowing holders of our token to potentially earn a yield on their gold holding. So it's helping to manage and increase wealth. And this is definitely something that I know that the institutions see as being a very favorable reason for why they should now adopt a tokenized position. But really where I'm passionate is that imagine,

It's not so much about making the institutions more because they're very good at doing that on their own. But it's really about you're giving tools, you're giving options. And this goes back to what I was saying at the start, which is where this red thread comes back in. You're giving tools and options to retail that just wouldn't have the same ability if they have gold to see that gold grow.

Travis John (27:08.59)
Thank you.

Travis John (27:23.054)
Yeah, that's well said. And I think the visual there of the red thread really helps symbolize this too. As you mentioned, when you look at the financial value, I kind of visualize that red thread that you're bringing up is the value proposition through financial instruments has been very limited for the personal retail investor or even just the person looking to maximize their retirement or maximize returns.

And this is what DeFi is doing. I know it seems a little scary, but ultimately that's, it is unlocking. And I, you made a good point there about how that brings it together.

Thomas Tallis (28:03.748)
Yeah. And also it's the, the, the, the options that we have or have had up until now, they're all denominated in that, you know, your base is, is whatever fiat currency you have, whether it's dollar or yen or pound. So that then implies that the value of that fiat also has to be sustained or is sustainable. Our base, our starting point is gold. So if, if gold actually is a safer store of value in terms of

maintaining over time its value and not suffering from, for example, the same inflation that fiat is suffering from. The APY you're earning on, yes, we're using fiat in a loan format to go and work the markets, but we must make it very clear to your listeners or to your viewers that actually the starting base is not a fiat asset, it's gold.

So that is also a huge, this again, it hasn't yet been seen before. So these new tools that we are implementing and rolling out also are hugely, not only exciting and different, but their anchor or the starting point is in a different asset to what we would normally start with, which is Fiat.

Travis John (29:30.702)
That's a great point. And we don't have to convince anyone that currently inflation is a major problem. I mean, in particular here in the US, yeah, I mean, I'll give you the one soapbox comment, but I mean, ultimately, even for the United States, I mean, it's arguably all in inflation is probably in the 12 to 15%, you know, on a high end. You know, so to your point, putting yourself into hard assets like gold,

Thomas Tallis (29:36.132)
We can skip that.

Travis John (29:58.83)
And then having a DeFi mechanism on top of that allows you to essentially, you know, hedge against all of these problems that Fiat will bring because having your money in Fiat only, which is most of the options for people, as you know, right now, that aren't in DeFi, you know, they're looking at a inflation adjusted return. You know, even if the return is not over 12%, you know, that's my personal opinion. And I know there's different data.

Points out there. I know the government has different view on this, but if you don't have a return over 12 % you're it's an it's a net negative Yeah

Thomas Tallis (30:35.524)
Exactly and you know a great point. So I you know, I draw reference to diversification It's you know, you know, it's always sensible to diversify. So we're not we're not we're not suggesting that people forget or come out entirely of Current positions, but it goes back to this word that I used earlier as options There's no there's no better way to to to

allow people to move up in terms of their wealth management, their wealth creation, then providing more options. The more options that people have, the more likely actually they will see a decent return. So it's not to point fingers and say one is better than the other. We avoid that because that's not really the point. We're only interested in what we are creating and the value that what we're creating actually then adds.

to the diversification, which I think is so important.

Travis John (31:36.142)
Well said, well said. And to your point, you have a bold mission of probably having other things that you'll tokenize in the future, but I think this also kind of is worth noting that there are several projects that I've talked to that in several verticals within the RWA space. And this just goes back to the options point that you make because most of these projects that are a little more exotic, so to speak, not like gold.

Thomas Tallis (31:54.02)
Hmm.

Travis John (32:05.134)
They're not going to necessarily attract institutional investors today or in the next six months or year. However, there are plenty of risk on maybe early crypto people or early pioneers into tech and blockchain that have the appetite to your point of options. It's diversification. Investing in Tvvin is a much more stable.

Thomas Tallis (32:09.7)
yes.

Travis John (32:33.742)
Part, for example, I mean, it's just using a hypothesis here, but in sense of options, say, hey, you have some money and fiat and some traditional things you're already doing. Like you said, you don't necessarily want to break that. But then you're looking at other ways to diversify, and maybe that's tokenized gold. And then maybe you have a small amount, your returns that you get with your tokenized gold and your token. You spin that into something or you get a higher yield. You can take loans.

You can use some of your returns into getting into some exotic things that you feel are going to work, and you can get maybe some really high returns there. But you obviously are taking a significant more risk because you realize that institutions and larger players aren't necessarily vetting that yet. Yeah.

Thomas Tallis (33:17.412)
Right, and well said, because what you did describe are mechanisms where people control what they want to do. This is really important. It's not a centralized investment firm basically telling you what they are doing on your behalf. You can do what you want to do. And it's like layers of a cake. So the base is wider. Maybe that's where you play it.

You know most conservative because you know, that's that would be probably a proven strategy But at the top of the cake where where the layer is is the smallest you can then you know look to see where Whatever whatever returns you've made how that can perhaps push your return higher But of course if it if it doesn't work because you're going into you know, especially now we're talking about DeFi If you if you're in more sort of riskier

positions, if it doesn't work, it doesn't affect your principle at the bottom of the cake. So that's the, you know, I hope you understand my analogy, but it's again, you know, we were talking about options, we're talking about diversification, and also we're talking about giving the power. And now we're going into retail, giving the power to the people who can actually help decide themselves what they think is best for them. And, but right now, if we were to, in theory, have the same

the same financial tools that we've had, as I said, up until this point, even if they were somehow brought on chain, we need more. We need, basically, we need fresh blood to actually make the diversification more sensible. And also where there can be probable gains, yes, on the more conservative scale or the more...

the more conservative side of the scale, also on the other side where if it does work for you, then the gains are going to be higher. And then, like I said, you just decide where you actually put your position and how much you go on the conservative side or the more risky side. So this is what's evolving. And it's so satisfying when I ponder on what we're doing. And if I'm...

Thomas Tallis (35:40.388)
out walking the dog or whatever it may be, just to realize that we are now contributing to new structures that once they become understood and they've been adopted in a widespread way, it is an enormous opportunity that we're tapped into.

Travis John (36:01.07)
It is. And I think even just tying this back to what people may understand right now is people have forever looked at real estate as an investment. And that's been one of those things that, you know, I think I always like to tie this back as I have background in real estate and looking at there's so many ways to make money with real estate. You know, most of it's not flipping, obviously. Most of it's buying and hold strategy. It's taking your equity and enrolling that into, you know, using that into investing in other properties.

Thomas Tallis (36:25.124)
Right.

Travis John (36:31.022)
So I always like to make this connection in some ways just because this is a lot with DeFi is it's just it's opening up the playbook to so many other assets, so many different opportunities that people understood and currently understand. Similar we talk about with stable coins and gold is, you know, they've seen real estate as an investment, as a stable investment and as an ability to get an equity line, to use that to leverage future investments.

Thomas Tallis (36:57.156)
Hmm.

Travis John (37:00.942)
So I think this is just another newer and in much more efficient way that you can do this without being a landlord or owning physical property. Yeah.

Thomas Tallis (37:10.788)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, another example of where on chain makes a lot of sense versus the physical position. So I've talked about how you can put your, or will be able to put your gold token into our digital vaults and how that can then see you and APY. But there's also another concept that we've been working on now for several months, which is, it's similar, but it has a slightly different output.

So you put your gold token into our digital vaults. But rather than putting the gold to work or allowing us on your behalf to put the gold to work, as I explained, what about if you could then, using the same type of LTV ratios of 85/15 -15, you could actually mint Fiat backed stablecoins based on the amount of gold that you put into your vault. Now, what this actually would then be providing is that because...

Because I've been aware that for, you know, there'll be a lot of people that want to buy gold because they feel that that's good for them. But what about if they, all they can afford to buy gold is that, you know, they still need to utilize or they still need to get by in their everyday. So it's not gonna be everybody that can just buy gold in a two to...

to use it as some sort of, I'm trying to think of the word, my brain is frozen, sort of like a, where you buy gold as an investment and you have it there just to hold it. It's your rainy day or you're building up a portfolio. What about those people that want gold, but at the same time,

Travis John (39:02.67)
Right.

Thomas Tallis (39:08.196)
the whatever they buy the gold token with, really they also need that or they might need it for their everyday. So if you could put your gold token into the digital vault and rather than actually taking the option for us to work it, but actually could mint stable coin or fiat back stable coin, let's imagine where do you then go with that stable coin? You could then use that for because your car needs new tires because you can, you know, all.

Maybe you take that stable coin because you know how to potentially make a higher APY in other places in DeFi, a higher APY than what we're able to offer, say through the monetization model on T -bills. So this is also a sort of a concept that we also see will be wanted simply because...

You know your your starting base is gold that doesn't change but your your your ability then to if you like convert it back into fiat and to use it and or or to or to use the stable coin that you've minted and put it into other areas of DeFi that that you think Is going to work best for you. Then you're also again. This is just another another example of where you have more options you have the ability to to you know, you're still using gold as your starting point.

But rather than seeing the gold sit down as a collateral and for Tvvin to earn an APY on your behalf, you mint stable coin and go out into DeFi and find the places where you think you can make more APY. So I hope that sort of demonstrates how we're thinking. We would be just as delighted if somebody didn't want to use our T T-Bill monetization model.

Travis John (40:47.854)
Thank you.

Thomas Tallis (41:05.572)
but rather take the stable coin that they can mint and go off and do what they think is best.

Travis John (41:12.078)
I love that. I mean, that definitely was where some of my thinking was going to. I'm glad you're thinking that way. And to your point, it's about options and it's about, you know, the underlying, I think why people are attracted to this space aside from the options is just the financial freedom aspect. It's just that umbrella of, you know, picking your options. You know, it's having the freedom to choose finance on your terms. And a lot of people do cloud that. And I think we've covered that at the beginning, but a lot of people cloud that as the future is...

financial freedom and it's without BlackRock. They're not one and the same. Your path of financial freedom and their path of financial freedom, they're going to be parallel in many cases. Now your choices won't be parallel, but the path to where blockchain and tokenization is going will be quite parallel, but you'll be able to pick your options and pick your appetite for risk.

you mentioned. And I think I love how you explained that about being able to take that you had some type of stablecoin yield and stablecoin and then move that into other investments. I see that as a huge use case for sure.

Thomas Tallis (42:21.636)
Sure.

Yeah. And of course, you know, it, you know, just again, pointing out that using the monetization model that we would offer, of course, there is, there is operational upside for Tvvin, but that's not really, that's not what we would, you know, we want to offer other options where, uh, it's, you know, we, we wouldn't necessarily be, um, having that upside because you would leave with the, you, you, you come out of the Tvvin, uh, sort of, you know, call it scope and then take that, that stable coin that you have minted and go and do your own thing.

Travis John (42:45.646)
All right.

Thomas Tallis (42:54.276)
But that's also equally good. It's not for us necessarily or at all to be trying to continually ask the users to be involved in our services. It's also about going back to options. If they want to buy our gold, that's amazing. If they then want to also mint stablecoin,

you know, by putting the token into the digital vault, great. And if they then want to say, okay, I'm going to just take a trip outside Tvvin for a moment and go somewhere else because, you know, I know what I'm doing and I'm confident that this is going to work, then that's great too. So it's really about facilitating, we are facilitating the ability for people to really be their own asset managers.

in one way, self -sufficient asset managers. Maybe that's a terminology that we should start using.

Travis John (43:55.63)
I love that. Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, I I you know, coming from your background that when people feel locked in, you know, I mean, it's one of those things where you're convinced that Twin Tvvin providing a very stable platform to get involved in tokenized gold and obviously the other things in the future. But as you mentioned, you know, having a project ethos that's, hey, we're looking to give you options, not...

lock you in. I think the psychology there even alone, I think will reap plenty of rewards for your project because many people, as you know, probably won't want to get as exotic because they're sold on getting those returns and staying in those, you know, hardy returns and gold and in the Tvvin eco, but ultimately giving them some options and maybe they take a portion and do that at times. That just really is a...

Thomas Tallis (44:26.212)
Yeah.

Travis John (44:53.23)
is a great testament to how you're building and where you see the foundation of the project and where you see the industry going and where, you know, where people, what people want ultimately, like just human nature. Yeah.

Thomas Tallis (44:56.196)
Thank you.

Thomas Tallis (45:02.18)
Yeah, I mean, and thank you that it's, yeah, it's absolutely and yes, we agree that I think for the majority of people, we're all busy and you know, the day seemed to get shorter and shorter, although it's still 24 hours in a day. It seems to, I don't know, it's, you know, so the probability that, you know, that those users who buy our token and want to see a yield returns would opt for us to do it.

I can see that being predominantly high because it's also, we're then taking the asset and managing it on your behalf under licensing that will be in place. But so it's not to say that I foresee that everybody will necessarily want to rush and mint stablecoin off of their gold that they have put into the vault and then go into the DeFi space to work it where they think is best to work it.

Nevertheless, if some that are better versed and have got a background and are much more comfortable because they know what to do, as you said, they have that option. And we would only encourage, you know, well, we simply encourage more options, whether it's to necessarily the best of our financial upside or not. That's actually that's not that's not that's not part of our decision making. It's about the it's like the springboard. Where do you go when you're when you're with Tvvin?

Travis John (46:19.054)
All right.

Thomas Tallis (46:28.836)
where can you go? And the more places that you can go, the better.

Travis John (46:33.678)
Well said, well said. And as you mentioned, your MVP is gold. You know, they're, who knows, maybe you'll have other things where people will stay in the eco, but they'll just, they'll, they'll move some, some of that yield over into other assets, you know, into some other assets, you know, so there's, there's obviously that option too, that could, they could evolve.

Thomas Tallis (46:51.3)
Yeah, and you know, we tend to talk about gold a lot and so it should because that is, as you said, is our MVP. Our partner actually has three other metals. These are all LBMA certified and maybe it's a good time to mention what LBMA is.

Travis John (47:10.542)
Yeah, I think we should and then we'll talk about, I think we've gotten people really excited about Tvvin and just talking about then how people can get involved, what the timeline is. Yeah.

Thomas Tallis (47:18.948)
Right, okay. Okay, so the LBMA stands for the London Market Bullion Association and it is a, it's like a badge and it's the highest of the certifications. The reason why it's also important is because we need to attract institutional adoption. So as I said earlier, the more institutions that adopt our token, the more confidence that retail will also have. So there is, that's why they're intrinsically connected.

And institutions don't buy gold per se unless it's LBMA certified. Why? Because if they buy it and then they want to then offload their positions, then they're going to find it harder if it's not LBMA certified because that is the sort of the Rolls -Royce, if you like, certification. And that's what their that's what subsequent or secondary or tertiary buyers of the gold would expect. But the.

The what I was just mentioning is that the our supplier has elvymade certified silver platinum and palladium So this is going to be after we we we launch our platform Which is a timetable for q3 of this year with our gold token. There will be then swift succession of those metals so that that straight away we're going to be offering a diversified portfolio because there will be four different products that that that Tvvin

users are able to look into if they say wish by and also they would, you know, and ultimately very soon after our platform launch, be able to exchange them in between one another. So you've already, you're already starting, if you like, an ecosystem where there can be, you know, you can decide that perhaps your gold should be best rock and silver because you see that silver is taking a, you know, a nice upward curve.

Etc but again, this would be something that you can decide and you do it on your own You know off of your own research and beliefs What I will also point out is that the the metals that we have access to they're vaulted in the Channel Islands which is the Channel Islands consist of predominantly Jersey and Guernsey and Which is just off the coast of France I would I I

Thomas Tallis (49:37.988)
I would say, hand on heart, that the gold and the other metals are some of the best quality metals around. So not only are we providing gold on chain, but the quality and also in terms of the quantity, how much we're able to source from our partner are phenomenal.

Travis John (50:00.75)
That's really an important point. I think I bring this back to one of the, I'd say analogies from the movie, The Big Short, which obviously talked about the mortgage market and everything. I think mortgages loan is not a loan. Mortgage -backed securities was a perfect example back in the 2008, 2009 point where just because these were mortgages, some were A paper, but then you had B, C, all these really terrible.

Thomas Tallis (50:25.604)
Right.

Travis John (50:31.246)
what's in the mortgage industry, as you know, with gold, there's different ratings. And gold is not as gold as gold. Having the highest standard for mortgage -backed securities, mortgage paper, mortgage loans is the same thing as it relates to gold or precious metals or anything of high value. So I think that's very important to know that this isn't just a facade of B and C metals that are

Thomas Tallis (50:45.892)
Yeah.

Travis John (51:00.686)
being vaulted that you feel like you have this now digital version that you can do a lot more with as we've described, which is amazing. But this is the creme de la creme, the top gold, yeah.

Thomas Tallis (51:13.316)
This is this is this is right at the top Yeah, and and and I mean I perhaps we need to come on and talk again because it's a conversation its own right But also something that we've also been planning is a regenerative Concept where we take gold that is not certified or LBMA certified But especially when we look at gold that that doesn't have the source we know there is there or it's dubious where it's come from

And unfortunately, there is a lot of gold that is mined where it leaves the population or the location where it's mined from. There is, unfortunately, there's child labor involved. There is so many unethical and unmoral practices going on. But what we have also been thinking about is working, for example, with LBMA.

This is where we actually approach the association in London and say, well, what about if we had, say, a subsequent or a different type of classification of token? So it wouldn't be $VVG, there'd be no contamination. But we could actually take a gold that is not certified. But what about if part of the funds that come in through sales of that gold could then be put aside and given...

back to the communities that actually need it most because they're the ones that actually have been adversely affected by these decades of illicit mining and where, as I said, there's been so much hardship. Through that way, you can actually take gold that's still gold, so rather than just ignore it, and there's a ton of it, so rather than just ignore it,

You can actually create a, you can actually create a, an asset that's, you know, it's it guesses underneath our LBMA certified token. Nevertheless, we could bring it into a, into a form where it's still worth something. But the more that it goes through these regenerative cycles, and I don't know how many, maybe two or three, you basically allow the gold that no one wants to touch to, to, to earn its stripes as it were, come up the, come up the, the pecking order.

Thomas Tallis (53:33.188)
where ultimately it might be LBMA certified, or perhaps there will be a totally new certification that would reflect that it's actually gone through this regenerative process. And the reason why that gold deserves to be bumped up is, as I said, because part of the revenues have actually then been put back to communities that actually have been done hard by, whether that is...

you know, cleaning up the mess because a lot of the gold extraction needs a huge mess. Or whether it's building critical infrastructure or schools or providing medicines. So this is something that is also to allow your followers to understand is that we are very, very ambitious. It doesn't detract anything from what we are, what we're doing, but there is so much, and this is again, thanks to blockchain, was there's so much we are able to do.

to bring in, you know, sort of, again, much needed novel ideas to, you know, for the betterment, you know, in general.

Travis John (54:40.878)
That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I didn't expect this. I know you're very ambitious, but yeah, this is definitely a really interesting aspect as well. The regenerative side is, it just makes sense. And I think this goes back to what I was saying is most people don't have a problem in distressed assets, so to speak. I mean, it's not really a distressed asset, but you know, like if people think about a lot of distress assets, as long as you know what you're investing in and you know what the returns are, then

It's perfectly, it makes perfect sense. And again, this goes back to the transparency of your project, the transparency of DeFi and what transparency means in DeFi and blockchain, which is, which is amazing. And I think being able to give back and being able to use that as, like you said, move things up the pecking order. You know, I think that's, that's, I would like to unpack that at some point in the future as, as, uh, as you continue on for sure.

Thomas Tallis (55:32.196)
Yeah, we've already had some indicative conversations because, you know, certain big corporations also need to adopt a philanthropic policy. I mean, there's no point in pretending that they also don't get tax breaks. They do. But nevertheless, they have these policies that they adopt. So, you know, we feel very confident when the time is right to really work more on this idea.

Travis John (55:45.614)
Right, yeah.

Thomas Tallis (55:57.284)
that we would also have if you like corporate sponsorship coming on board because you know their name will then be put to you know Added to the mix of this great of this great initiative where they will be Be able to say that we are also helping, you know, bring bring gold that is as you said a stressed asset Into into a point of play that is no longer stressed and that it's then widely recognized as being fully tradable and legitimate all the while

there's been some good stuff going on, which, you know, that's, you know, if I'm able to add that to, to Tvvin's legacy, that'd be great.

Travis John (56:35.022)
Amazing. So I think you mentioned about Q3 this year looking to launch. So maybe we'll get into a little bit about some of the things all the listeners want to know, when token, when launch, those types of things. To some, yes, for sure. So yeah.

Thomas Tallis (56:48.452)
Right. It's all the important stuff.

Thomas Tallis (56:54.404)
Oh, yeah, it is. Absolutely. It is, yeah. So, yeah, okay. But, yeah, far away.

Travis John (57:00.462)
So I think you'd mentioned Q3. I know you have an exciting TMinusOne. -1. You have a launch partner, one of the launch pads. I don't know if you have multiple lined up, but I know... Okay.

Thomas Tallis (57:07.428)
Yeah, yeah, there will be more, but we announced it yesterday. So yes, correct for our public sector. Correct. Yeah.

Travis John (57:13.486)
Okay. Perfect. So yeah, maybe we'll talk a little bit about public sale, how people get involved. Uh, and maybe even if there's something you want to preface before the talk about the public sale, but you know, we've obviously done a great job and particularly you and just describing the project and really what this opportunity looks like. I mean, I think it's been very clear through this conversation that, uh, not only are you doing everything, uh, that you can to provide options and to provide a safe vehicle into one of the best assets you can.

you can purchase in a new and digital manner, but what the Tvvin token is and how people get involved so that they can take advantage of this opportunity.

Thomas Tallis (57:53.988)
So we recently closed a very limited seed round. We put that to, went out on our socials recently. So I'm delighted and very grateful for those that contributed and came in. So we raised just over a million in that seed round. What we are now wholeheartedly planning and with the...

with the timeframe being mid May, so just a few weeks away, is that we would then be going into our private token sale. And Lise, as you mentioned at the start, she's my co -founder, she's head of, or she's the CMO, and she's in charge of now putting the, she's also the one that's setting me up with you, Travis, and we're now on a heavy drive to get as many people,

to know that we are now soon to launch into our private sale. As I said, it'll be mid -May. So please keep looking out on whether it be in Discord or X or even on LinkedIn and so on and so forth. From the private sale, we then will be looking to run the public sale, which is where, as you mentioned, one of the launch pads will be T TMinusOne. one. And that is earmarked for mid, perhaps third week of June.

So about a month after the private sale. And then swiftly after public sale will be the token generation event for our $TVVIX token. That's the token that we're selling at the private and the public sale. And that will be end of June. Following from our TGE, we then will be fully focused on getting the platform deployment ready for operational commencement with our gold token, $VVG.

which as you, well I mentioned before, earlier on is Q3 of this year.

Travis John (59:56.334)
Okay. And.

Thomas Tallis (59:57.636)
So it's a private, public TGE launch.

Travis John (01:00:03.182)
Perfect. And what's the relationship just so listeners understand the $VVG versus the $TVVIX token and how that relationship works and what exposure each one brings and what each means?

Thomas Tallis (01:00:16.1)
So $VVG is the two V's in Tvvin so that we come back to the come back to the to the to the Tvvin analogy. So it's VVG for gold. Silver will be VVS, platinum VVP, palladium VVPL and so on and so forth. So the V will always be the constant in front of the of the other letters that will then represent the asset.

Travis John (01:00:31.182)
Okay.

Thomas Tallis (01:00:44.74)
That is backing that particular token. These are our if you like our products. These are our commodity tokens These are the real world asset tokens but Tvvin also has a utility platform token which is Tvvix and that is the that is the token that we are selling now a private and public sale and that's and the TGE that I that I've just mentioned is Tvvix is token generation event and it's a Cardano native token. So CNT

The reason for, one of the main reasons, which is the financial incentivization reason for holding Tvvix, let's go back to the digital vaults. If you Travis wanted to put your gold token into the vault, so we can take that with your permission, of course, take that asset and work it in the markets as we discussed earlier, the key to be able to come into the vault is Tvvix. And,

So there will be and we will be announcing because we're now been working. We have brought on board a quant, someone who is now devising the, in this case, the specific ratio of how much twigs proportionately will you need to hold in order for the amount of gold token that you want to put into a digital vault. So that is now work in progress and we will come out with that once we have a.

It's not a it's not a straightforward ratio and calculation But once we have you know sort of tested it and made sure that it's of course fair But also that it's sustainable we can we will then be announcing that But the the twigs that you need if you like which is the key that unlocks the door into the vault that Tvvix is then locked up with your with your with your gold. So it's not like it's lost It's just that it's the it's the is the requirement that you have a certain amount of

Tvvix in order to come in. What's also important is that in terms of the APY, and this is because of regulation, the APY that we then pay back subject to successful investment, say in T -bills, as we touched on, the actual asset that we pay you back in is Tvvix. So when you then receive the additional Tvvix because you've been locked up in our digital vault.

Travis John (01:02:39.438)
Mm -hmm.

Thomas Tallis (01:03:07.364)
That is what is returned to you. We like this because you can then decide to simply then just hold that Tvvix, that earned Tvvix, because you think it's an asset that you want to keep on growing. But you can also take that Tvvix and then convert it into our gold token or our silver token or wherever you want to convert that. Maybe it's outside of Tvvin. Maybe you're on a DEX and you convert that Tvvix into another token that we have a pairing with.

for example, into ADA, for example. So again, I think it's becoming clear that it's all about the options that you earn. You earn the Tvvix for going into the vault and for us then using your gold to work the market. And then when you have it, it's up to you how you want to, or what you want to do with it. Simply hold it or exchange it.

Sorry, did I miss the latter part of the question?

Travis John (01:04:05.39)
No, I think you covered it well. I think in summary, I think if I understood that correctly, I mean, obviously it's your ecosystem token Tvvix that it's a, and you explained really well the utilities of it. It's not just a, you know, a static token. It's, it's access to the vault. It's, it's a way that you can, you can purchase the gold, silver platinum, theoretically any of the precious metals you offer in the future. It's also a way if you're just watching and you want.

Thomas Tallis (01:04:13.06)
Yes.

Thomas Tallis (01:04:24.548)
Yes?

Travis John (01:04:34.83)
exposure to the Tvvin project, ultimately, I'm sure this will be listed on DEXs like MinSwap and TapTools and places where Tvvin will be listed to just get exposure to the project in general. Your version essentially of staking, if you will, it almost has like a staking component in the sense that you're pairing it with your gold or silver, for example, right? Is that?

Thomas Tallis (01:04:48.932)
Right.

Travis John (01:05:04.142)
I know it's not exactly that, but.

Thomas Tallis (01:05:04.26)
Yeah, I mean, it, yeah, it, it, it, it, it's not exactly that, but it actually is part of the, it's part of the, it's needed to fulfill the mechanism. It's needed to actually see you, um, you know, you know, going back to where you hold a, a, a gold in the physical format is, is, you know, and a year later, it's still static. This is, this is actually part of the, the solution for actually taking an asset and making it fluid.

So it's not static. So it actually can earn. It can actually earn passive income. What I will also mention, which is really important, is that the APY that we pay back, after a certain point, and we hope quite soon, because that will show that there is actually, that a lot of people have built demand for this, Tvvin itself will be buying Tvvix off the market at market rate. So this is also going to be helping to keep the...

the price of Tvvix at a sustained level. It is also part of our deflationary model. So it's not simply that we would indefinitely just mint Tvvix to then pay the APY because that would be disastrous for tokenomics. But actually, Tvvin itself is going out. Actually, in practice, it will be our...

our foundation that will be continuously buying twigs off the market, holding it, if you like, in a treasury, which is then, and it's those twigs that are then used for the APY that users have earned.

Travis John (01:06:48.814)
That's great. And I think that that's an important thing to note is just how well thought out the tokenomics are, deflationary. And also, I think from just a visual standpoint, listeners understanding and viewers, that that's why the unique spelling of Tvvin in the first place with the two V's we keep coming back to is that ultimately the Tvvix token is the one Tvvin and the gold is the other Tvvin. And

That's how they work together. Like you said, that's how they represent each other in the digital and the physical world.

Thomas Tallis (01:07:20.1)
Yes. Yeah, I mean, and what we love about the two V's is that you can apply it in so many different ways. So, you know, TradFi, DeFi, I mean, there's another, you know, where, you know, so, you know, there are so many, so many examples of where the Tvvin analogy makes sense. And also it helps people that, you know, are new to this to really understand what we're doing. What we've seen is that, especially someone who is completely sort of

Travis John (01:07:29.678)
Alright.

Thomas Tallis (01:07:47.364)
fresh to the whole concept. Explain it to me like a five -year -old. The ability to actually use the two Vs, then suddenly it's widely understood. That's going to be great for our brand, especially as we expand into other markets. From a communication point of view, we've got such a strong tool to be able to get our message across and for people to understand what we're doing.

Travis John (01:08:15.598)
Well said. So I think as we're closing out, anything that I forgot to ask you or didn't mention or some alpha or anything that you want to share for listeners.

Thomas Tallis (01:08:28.868)
Well, we will be announcing our DAO. I don't have an actual time frame per se, but we're working as soon as we know that we're especially after TGE. That's definitely on the cards to push and get set up as quickly as possible. We've already taken the steps to incorporate a foundation in the Cayman Islands.

This is a special type of vehicle that we've incorporated. It comes under something called the Companies Foundation 2017. It's a piece of legislation. What it is in a nutshell is that there is a footprint because we are incorporated. Yet one of the reasons or one of its abilities of this type of specific company is to interact and to listen to a doubt.

So as I made very clear, we're talking to regulators. Mentioning a DAO to regulators is like, I won't tell you the type of response I've had so far, but it's essential, especially in our sector, and that we have a DAO. The reason also why it's essential is that Tvvin will be having a two -way conversation. We want to be able to talk to...

into our members or aka Tvvix holders. And that is also going to be by holding Tvvix, you can then be part of the, call it the membership base or the DAO. That is also another utility and rationale for holding Tvvix. So when the DAO makes a decision, it could be a decision that let's say there's a vote, it could be votes on trading fees, or it could be a vote on what are the real world asset or sector.

should we be focusing on, for example, so we can actually take the temperature from what our community wants. Are we thinking about agro commodities, for example, cocoa or coffee? Are we thinking about other metals like copper? Are we thinking about intellectual property? Which direction? This is going to be so much fun because we can, of course, come with our input and we will, but it's going to be also very important that we hear what others think are the important...

Thomas Tallis (01:10:57.636)
new territories to march into. So when the DAO is making its decisions, because it's autonomous and because we need to satisfy regulators that we have also listened to them, this particular type of entity that we've incorporated now in Cayman, because it's got a specific or it's designed so it can listen to the DAO,

The decisions that come from the DAO, of course, then get looked at. If something is not quite manageable for A or B, then the entity goes back to the DAO and says, okay, we hear what you're saying, but this could be something that we need you to look at again, or whatever it may be. But it allows for the autonomy to remain intact with the DAO, but also where whatever decisions it makes,

to be formally ratified and executed and deployed through an entity that has a footprint, and that's what regulators like.

Travis John (01:12:05.07)
That's great. That's a really unique way to set it up. And I think that is quite a bit of, we'll see, I believe DAOs are the future. And I'm sure I don't have to tell you, of course, many of our listeners, but having a voice in projects just is another thing we've been talking about through this whole conversation of options. It's, you're able to give your voice and give your input so that that project has options and even you're presenting options to that project as a group.

And as you mentioned, because you will be very institutional heavy from investment, you do have that ability to essentially vet votes to see like, is this reasonable? Can we actually execute on this vote or this interest? Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Tallis (01:12:48.228)
Absolutely and then and it also means that you know because we know you know talked with regulators never stop It's ongoing for the for the for the duration of my life I will always be where there is going to be you know ongoing talks because that's how it works It's not a it's not a it's not a one -stop shop. So Again, it's all about giving confidence. I'm you know, I'm I'm a great fan of of adapting regulation when regulation is right nobody wants to

be part of anything that is handling monies that are basically dirty or shouldn't be in the system at all. This is something that also is something I'm very passionate about is allowing where it's allowed to happen. But at the same time, you need those checks and balances. You mentioned institutions. If we don't have certain checks and balances, again, institutions won't touch us with a barge pole.

because you know, it's just so, but this is the way that, you know, it is developing. Of course, there are some people that have a very utopian idea, but, you know, that's, of course, we just have to agree to disagree and they have their point of view. We are taking the very best as we see it from the traditional side and DeFi, but importantly,

adapting it to make sure it's compliant. That is really the point I want your followers to take note on. Compliance will always be and is such a critical point of how we're developing our platform. But yeah, I suppose the best way to put it is that we can have our cake and eat it. We can have a DAO, but also we don't have to then, you know, we can be fully transparent when we're speaking to the authorities that yes, we have a DAO,

but who's actually managing the doubt, who's looking after it, and who's making sure that whatever the decisions that are rolled out are actually allowed in the first place.

Travis John (01:14:54.062)
Yeah. And I do feel like that's my own personal opinion is this is a structure that's going to work best. I'm not necessarily a fan of DAOs where it's complete autonomy and the sense of everybody gets, everything happens regardless of the decentralized vote. I think having leaders and that structure at the top that helps to direct those initiatives is always going to be important. I mean, the history tells us that.

So I think that's a great way that you've set that up and it's great that you're moving in that direction. So, well, this has been great, Thomas. Really have enjoyed the conversation.

Thomas Tallis (01:15:33.06)
I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, I mean, thank you so much. I mean, I'm sorry we went over your time. But, you know, there's so much to cover and I would love to come back and talk and talk more. And, you know, if any of you know, if anyone that's that watching is watching wants to get in touch, you know, please get through, you know, do that through our X page, Discord, LinkedIn. Yeah, so we're.

Just delighted that we had such a, you know, that you gave more time than I thought was being allocated to really get the messages out there.

Travis John (01:16:10.862)
Well, hey, I like to just keep this in flow with where the vibe is going. And we really had a lot to cover and this was really exciting. So I enjoyed it. Thank you for your time. And I'll certainly break this up also and give some highlights so that people are able to consume this in different pieces. But it's tvvin .com is the website. Again, Thomas Tallis, co -founder and CEO. And...

Thomas Tallis (01:16:34.884)
That's right. That's right.

Travis John (01:16:38.638)
Yeah, we'll have you back as you continue to move through your private sales and token generation events, et cetera, and continue to get the word out.

Thomas Tallis (01:16:48.068)
Thank you so much, Travis.

Travis John (01:16:49.774)
Thank you.